[sugaki]

To the original post:
I think there are two main reasons in searching for a mouthpiece: a) sound b) playability.
The latter is where I guffaw and shake my head--when mouthpiece makers (some on this forum) tout how their mouthpiece is the ultimately player, better than any modern vintage Link/Meyer or whatever. My Meyer USA 7 I bought for like $90 in the '90s has been my go-to mouthpiece for alto. I may subjectively like other sounds, but if I can't pop altissimo on this mpc, or play articulately it's entirely my fault. A well-refaced cheap modern mouthpiece will get the job done just as well as some boutique mouthpiece.

Tone is where I enjoy buying and selling mouthpieces. Not better, just different. Sure the difference may be 5% from one Link to the next, but that 5% is still fun to explore. Moreover, it rarely changes my main mouthpiece.

Where I think he's off-base though is where he says "the hobby mentality is a kind of apathy or depression or brain fog"--when you're pulling 10-hour work days and have other life commitments, you can't always fully devote yourself to the music.

 

[buddy lee]

Where I think he's off-base though is where he says "the hobby mentality is a kind of apathy or depression or brain fog"--when you're pulling 10-hour work days and have other life commitments, you can't always fully devote yourself to the music.

Yeah. COULD I quit my job, practice 8 hours a day and get good enough to "play music full time", yeah I honestly think I could. Do I want to take a 75% pay cut in order to do it? Hell no.

I know some pros here locally, and they HUSTLE so hard to make a living. People with good attitudes and a mountain of talent worried about how they're going to pay the bills that month. And listen, I'm sure there are plenty of pros who do just fine, but for the majority I'd imagine it's not an easy life financially.

So I have a day job and I play on weekends and rehearse on weeknights and practice on my own when I can. It's rewarding AF. If that makes me a loser or depressed or whatever, then so be it.

Phil is way, way off-base here. If I didn't know better, and maybe I don't, I'd say he's projecting a lot of his own insecurities into these posts.

 

[Tryptykon]

This thread, though ..

 

[SimonJazzSax]

.....and to bring it into the current age, Dave Liebman, Jerry Bergonzi, Joel Frahm, Bob Mintzer, Chad LB (although he plays SYOS, every time I see a video he has a different colored mouthpiece.......), MIchael Brecker and all his mouthpieces......, Joshua Redman, Melissa Aldana, Mark Turner, Seamus Blake........

All these players, have switched mouthpieces. Some more than others. If it doesn't matter........ then why do they search?

Steve. I have a huge beef with this statement.

You didn't include my name with those players

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[Nefertiti]

Steve. I have a huge beef with this statement.

You didn't include my name with those players

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I didn't want to embarrass you by lumping you in with those mediocre players...........

 

[Phil Barone]

"As for hobbyists, I never did hobby or mediocre. I believe if you're going to do something than go for it but that's just me. I've always felt that the hobby mentality is a kind of apathy or depression or brain fog. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking like this, I don't know but to be honest, it's not easy being me but I wouldn't want to be any other way either."

Ok Phil, saw your point of view in the first post and now you've gone off the rails! Not necessarily depression but brain fog is a possibility! Come on man, shake yourself! You're doing damage to your reputation at this point that could have fallout for your horn business since I'm guessing a lot of your customers are those lame hobbyists. Sheesh...

Okay Jerry, you're right. I did go off a bit. I looked up the word hobby and it turns out I have one. My hobby is harassing my kid. It's so much fun! Phil

 

[Phil Barone]

And for the record, I'm not in the least bit bitter or jealous, my life is amazing and I wish everyone tremendous success, just not at other peoples expense. And my horns are made in Taiwan, not China but that's an established fact and the engraving is flawless. Anyone that doesn't like one can return it for a complete refund and I pay the shipping both ways. My point of view comes from seeing first hand hundred of players put gear above what's important.

 

[SimonJazzSax]

I didn't want to embarrass you by lumping you in with those mediocre players...........

Ya. Good call.

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[StefGrani]

Yeah. COULD I quit my job, practice 8 hours a day and get good enough to "play music full time", yeah I honestly think I could. Do I want to take a 75% pay cut in order to do it? Hell no.

I guess some of the distractions in the discussion is just this. Some of us, like me, are truly playing sax as a hobby and some others to make a living. For people like me, it is difficult to even to decide what kind of tip opening would work for me best if I already decided to buy a certain mp. Then I should understand what kind of tip opening and reed combination works best for me. I understood that Phil Barone was trying to point out the endless variables that you can't control when you get in the "shopping mode". Therefore, I believe his open letter has a lot of substance that especially players like myself, doing it only as a hobby, should understand better.

Now, the long list of star players with their mouthpiece preferences, that has been displayed here, made me think about something else. They have certainly recorded using two or more different mouthpieces. When you listen to those recordings, can you tell the difference?? Gerry Mulligan, one of my all time favorite players, was very specific about his mouthpieces. On his album "What is there to say?", in my opinion one of the best jazz albums ever made, his sound is just incredibly pure and beautiful. I know, that I can never reach that sound, because you can hear that it is he who makes it, not the gear. Yes, he was very touchy about his gear, but still... Funny, but the closest I ever got to that sound was with a Rico Metalite M7 and not with my Selmer S80, Otto Link or Mayer (ebonites).

So, there are no rules. At least rules that I can understand. I understood from Phil Barone's text that he was trying to point out that this trial and error method that I'm also very guilty of, is not likely to give you the answer you are looking for. Lately I have realized that for a player like me, playability is the major issue. If the mouthpiece is easy to play, you can focus on the musicality and sound.

 

[saxcop]

And for the record, I'm not in the least bit bitter or jealous, my life is amazing and I wish everyone tremendous success, just not at other peoples expense. And my horns are made in Taiwan, not China but that's an established fact and the engraving is flawless. Anyone that doesn't like one can return it for a complete refund and I pay the shipping both ways. My point of view comes from seeing first hand hundred of players put gear above what's important.

Just because you say it doesn't make it an established fact. The engravings on your horns are crude compared to the numerous other brands of Taiwan horns that I have owned. Chinese like on the Barone

 

[Phil Barone]

.....and to bring it into the current age, Dave Liebman, Jerry Bergonzi, Joel Frahm, Bob Mintzer, Chad LB (although he plays SYOS, every time I see a video he has a different colored mouthpiece.......), MIchael Brecker and all his mouthpieces......, Joshua Redman, Melissa Aldana, Mark Turner, Seamus Blake........

All these players, have switched mouthpieces. Some more than others. If it doesn't matter........ then why do they search? Why did they switch? These are some of the best of the best. If they are searching and switching at times, might there be something involved here of importance.......... Just a thought.........

As I have said before, when you have a passion that motivates you, you are obsessed with the pursuit of becoming better........Yes, I would say it is overkill for a player who is in his first 1-3 years of playing to be buying countless Florida Links, Guardalas, Freddie Gregory's etc........ Just play a Yamaha student mouthpiece and learn the tar out of the fundamentals. After 3 years, try a bunch of pieces and pick one that does it for you. After that many years you can play a bit and you know what you like. BUT! then stay on that piece for another 2 years at least continuing to practice and mature. After two years, you have been playing 5 years, do whatever you want.......

Steve, I don't think the average player is on the same level as the guys you mention and you'd have to see the vast majority of my clients. I've known Mintzer for thirty-five years and he's had three mouthpieces in all that time and he personally told me "I'm not into mouthpieces". I worked for Brecker and he wasn't obsessed with mouthpieces at all. He experimented but wasn't obsessed with them like I see going on these days among young and inspiring players and with all due respect your website helps fuel it.

But my point is, what are you doing for your music today, practicing, listening, master classes, theory or looking on the web at forums where ignorance is so prevalent? Hows your theory? Hows your piano playing, harmony? You want to be a professional? Hows your clarinet and flute playing? This propaganda that the industry and people who just have selfish needs is the epitome of ignorance and contributes to the downfall of jazz saxophone.

Even when I was in the business I didn't push mouthpieces on anybody that didn't need one because I wasn't driven by money, I was never a money oriented person. I made two mouthpieces a week and money wasn't my goal, helping people was. What's your motivation for your mouthpiece site? Nobody is going to sound like you or anybody else does on a particular mouthpiece or horn so what's the point? Obsession or not, a mouthpiece isn't going to make you better and those guys know it and as for people like Bergonzi or anyone on his level that so obsessed with gear, they're chasing something that's a fantasy or he would have found one by now. It doesn't exist and Jerry's obsession is driven by some neurosis, not becoming a better musician. It's a sickness for some people, not all but many.

I've been playing since 68 and I've had one mouthpiece on tenor for thirty years and two on baritone and although I made better ones I didn't switch because I was used to it and I knew all the time what it was going to do with any number of reeds I put on it. No, at some point the mouthpiece and gear obsession craze should be put to bed. That's my opinion, take what you like and leave the rest. Phil

 

[Phil Barone]

Just because you say it doesn't make it an established fact. The engravings on your horns are crude compared to the numerous other brands of Taiwan horns that I have owned. Chinese like on the Barone

View attachment 241932

Looks great to me. I've had twenty Mark VI's and my horns look just as good. But you've been critical for me for a while now, why I'm not exactly sure. You said in one post that you're in the business and you have fifty horns but you never give your name, never try to sell on here and nobody knows who you are. What's the deal?

 

[StanVI]

Just because you say it doesn't make it an established fact. The engravings on your horns are crude compared to the numerous other brands of Taiwan horns that I have owned. Chinese like on the Barone

View attachment 241932

The engraving on my Barone tenor is is flawless...and I could care less...what's important to me is how it plays...and it plays very well...

 

[Phil Barone]

Oh, and I made a dynamite lunch for my girlfriend today, portobello mushrooms stuffed with broccoli rabe sauteed in olive oil and lots of garlic then sprinkled with red pepper flakes. Delicious! And Bill freakin Evans had a crappy Chickering piano. Bon appetite!

 

[Graysax]

I was never a money oriented person. Phil

I have watched this thread for awhile now, and I again have a need to speak up.

Phil, It is agreed that you have worked with many famous saxophonists. I just did't like seeing that in your earlier post you had to name them all just to justify your point. I think many of the people here on SOTW know who you are and what you have done.

Maybe more than 20 years ago I had you put an epoxy baffle in a Meyer alto MPC for me, and we agreed that you would take a NY Meyer alto as payment (they were maybe going for about $450 at that time). We agreed to that. When you returned my Meyer it looked as if you just slapped in some epoxy. There was no hand finishing. Nothing fancy. I could of done the same thing at that time. Did I complain, no, because WE agreed. You did the work and shame on me for not doing more research.

As a repair tech, my mentor had personal contact with you, and always said you were always looking at stealing other's ideas but that is another story.

I have seen and played mouthpieces you have made and never been blown away.

Now, back to what got me going today on this post is what you said about you were "never a money oriented person". You made and did work on mouthpieces and made horns, etc. I'm sure making money was a factor or else you wouldn't of stopped when it didn't become hugely successful.

Again, I have nothing but respect and I wish you further luck, but just calling it like I see it.

 

[Nefertiti]

What's your motivation for your mouthpiece site?

To answer your question, 95% of my income comes from teaching. Since 2007 I have written 15 books and made over 600+ video lessons on jazz and saxophone. A few years ago, I decided I was wasting too much time and money reviewing mouthpieces. Some I would buy and lose money on the resale, many I would be stuck paying for shipping and the cost of reeds which was and is ridiculous. I decided to start asking to keep the mouthpieces I review as I saw that that is what other review sites did. Selling a used a mouthpiece once a week that I reviewed is in no way making me rich. If anything, I'm just trying to keep my site costs covered by it. I do not have a cheap site on godaddy or hostgator. The costs can add up to run a site that is fast and doesn't crash all the time.

The reason I do what I do is passion and love. Trust me, it is not money or I would be doing something else. Probably anything else. I love playing the saxophone. I love teaching the saxophone. I love trying new saxophone gear. I don't think that is evil or that I am ruining the future of jazz saxophone. I have some containers in my office with my mouthpieces. Yesterday, I took out my Barone SNY, my Barone Jazz JB (I think you said that was Bronze), a few Links and some other mouthpieces I have. I have other pieces in that box as well all separated and protected by cushioning. All these pieces are important to me. Not for the money, not for the collection. They are important to me for the feeling I get when I put them on my sax and play them. They are all different. The tone is different, the response is different, the intonation is different, the brightness and darkness is different. When I put one of these pieces on with a great reed I am in heaven. That's what excites me. That's what fuels this journey I am on. I am like you in that it's not about the money. I just need enough to get by and sometimes I have to sell some mouthpieces and run some sales to pay my bills that month.

The fact that you are implying that it's about the money hurts my feelings honestly. But maybe that is because all you look at on my site is the mouthpiece review side of it and haven't watched my teaching videos. I am not the best player in the world or even the best teacher but I am passionate about the saxophone and music. I have been told by students that that comes across quite often in my lesson videos and it cracks them up. I enjoy what I am doing and although my wife keeps pressuring me to leave music behind and pursue something more sustainable in my older years, I keep clinging to it. I can't let it go, it has consumed me since 7th grade and probably until I die.

I respect you, and appreciate your contribution to the saxophone world immensely. I might disagree with some of your opinions at times but that is life. I totally agree with you about being in the practice room and progressing musically but I have also had many adult students who's hobby is to collect Selmer saxophone and buy every great mouthpiece they can find. Hey, if that is what you're into, go for it.

(Actually, now that I think about it, maybe this all stems from my childhood. I had a stamp collection, a rock collection, a coin collection, a comic book collection, etc.......maybe some of us are just wired genetically to be collectors. Who knows?? Haha!)

 

[10mfan]

In the end, we all leave this earth, so make your time here how YOU want it to be.
Its YOUR story, and YOU write the book.
What anyone else says is irrelevant, unless you make it relevant.
Have fun doing it YOUR way.
Follow your passion always.
All the best,
Mark

 

[10mfan]

To answer your question, 95% of my income comes from teaching. Since 2007 I have written 15 books and made over 600+ video lessons on jazz and saxophone. A few years ago, I decided I was wasting too much time and money reviewing mouthpieces. Some I would buy and lose money on the resale, many I would be stuck paying for shipping and the cost of reeds which was and is ridiculous. I decided to start asking to keep the mouthpieces I review as I saw that that is what other review sites did. Selling a used a mouthpiece once a week that I reviewed is in no way making me rich. If anything, I'm just trying to keep my site costs covered by it. I do not have a cheap site on godaddy or hostgator. The costs can add up to run a site that is fast and doesn't crash all the time.

The reason I do what I do is passion and love. Trust me, it is not money or I would be doing something else. Probably anything else. I love playing the saxophone. I love teaching the saxophone. I love trying new saxophone gear. I don't think that is evil or that I am ruining the future of jazz saxophone. I have some containers in my office with my mouthpieces. Yesterday, I took out my Barone SNY, my Barone Jazz JB (I think you said that was Bronze), a few Links and some other mouthpieces I have. I have other pieces in that box as well all separated and protected by cushioning. All these pieces are important to me. Not for the money, not for the collection. They are important to me for the feeling I get when I put them on my sax and play them. They are all different. The tone is different, the response is different, the intonation is different, the brightness and darkness is different. When I put one of these pieces on with a great reed I am in heaven. That's what excites me. That's what fuels this journey I am on. I am like you in that it's not about the money. I just need enough to get by and sometimes I have to sell some mouthpieces and run some sales to pay my bills that month.

The fact that you are implying that it's about the money hurts my feelings honestly. But maybe that is because all you look at on my site is the mouthpiece review side of it and haven't watched my teaching videos. I am not the best player in the world or even the best teacher but I am passionate about the saxophone and music. I have been told by students that that comes across quite often in my lesson videos and it cracks them up. I enjoy what I am doing and although my wife keeps pressuring me to leave music behind and pursue something more sustainable in my older years, I keep clinging to it. I can't let it go, it has consumed me since 7th grade and probably until I die.

I respect you, and appreciate your contribution to the saxophone world immensely. I might disagree with some of your opinions at times but that is life. I totally agree with you about being in the practice room and progressing musically but I have also had many adult students who's hobby is to collect Selmer saxophone and buy every great mouthpiece they can find. Hey, if that is what you're into, go for it.

(Actually, now that I think about it, maybe this all stems from my childhood. I had a stamp collection, a rock collection, a coin collection, a comic book collection, etc.......maybe some of us are just wired genetically to be collectors. Who knows?? Haha!)

Beautifully said. Right from the heart.

 

[Dr G]

Beautifully said. Right from the heart.

Phil's comments - however offensive to some - are likely right from the heart as well.

Compassion to all that are going through Stuff, however it manifests.

Music is what binds us all - whether vocation or avocation. I respect everyone's "right" to make music as they like - just give me an equal right to not have to listen to it. :bluewink:

Tenor - That's what really matters. IMNSHO.

 

[10mfan]

I fully agree that Phil’s comments were from the heart too. He has always been very passionate about what he says.