An Important Message From Mouthpiece Maker Phil Barone
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Agree, needs to be good gear...just have to figure out what works for you and then settle on it. My chops do much better with a Link-style mouthpiece than a Berg-style, but I had to find that out. My youngest son is an advancing cellist and I wouldn't have thought the next level of instrument would make a difference until I heard it for myself in a comparison test at a strings specialty shop, a luthier. BUT we waited for his teacher to tell us when his skill had advanced enough to take advantage of a better instrument.
One more for photography, though....I'm a Nikon guy guy, a lot of investment there but I'm jealous of a friend who unloaded his Nikon gear for the more compact line of Fujifilm shutterless cameras. He is an accomplished photographer who can pull a good composition out of just about any shot and the camera is so much more compact and lighter. The digital quality of the photos is on par with quality from my full-frame Nikons. But I'm not unloading my Nikon glass investment anytime soon.
Picked up a sax in 2002 and here I am.
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Get one of the new Nikon mirrorless cameras with the adapter for your lenses! I would if I didn't already have Pentax gear, probably will still switch at some point.
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683 Posts
Good analogy. Recently went with the new GFX medium format Fuji system. Better gear can give you the ability to get shots lesser gear cannot capture but the composition and control of the light are still up to the photographer.
Amazing when you consider Getz played a combination of small tip/hard reed and a considerable period without teeth!
The analogy that your sound comes from your brain is absolutely evident in blind artists such as Art Tatum,
Ray Charles, Joaquin Rodrigo, George Shearing, Nobuyuki Tsujii, Ronie Milsap, Stevie Wonder,
Andrea Bocelli. However, not all of us, have a talented unique ability for the brain to memorise and recall music to the standards of even these great blind musicians!
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748 Posts
Hi SOTW,
that's an interesting read, thanks for all opinions here. I agree with most of what Phil Barone wrote concerning gear.
Here's my story from the last years:
I've been a gear head for about ten years, heavily purchasing and trying mouthpieces. My issue was experiencing the benefits of different designs over a couple of months with every single piece, becoming more independent from gear in general and, finally, settling on something that I really liked and that fit my concept of playing.
I then spent a couple of years with changing every couple of months and spending a lot of money, eventually finding out that the perfect piece didn't exist for me when it came to detail soundwise and in terms of feel.
This was the time I started refacing for myself. After about five years of research (trial and error) I'm now at the point where I can modify a mouthpiece for my individual needs and make it a perfect match with my horn, my reeds and my mind.
The only pieces I've bought since then have been the cheap ones that I will use as blanks to adapt them again to my needs one day.
I couldn't be happier at the moment. I'm playing one mouthpiece per type of horn (soprano, alto, tenor, bari). The only changes I've made in the meantime were changing very little characteristics of my pieces when I felt that I needed a bit more ease at getting a certain sound here or there during the gig that I couldn't achieve with practicing.
With this way of adapting both the mouthpieces (by modifying) and myself (by practicing/getting used to the setup) I've come very close to the sound in my head.
Well, it could be that the sound in my head will change one day but until then I'm playing the perfect mouthpiece for me. Total costs for the tenor piece: 35 bucks for the used blank and a couple of weeks modifying and adapting to it. I've been playing it for two years now without changing anything.
I know this approach takes a lot of time but I can really recommend it to every player who wants to get rid of GAS and find an individual sound.
If you're more into trying a lot of stuff for the fun of it feel free to keep doing it - but be aware that it probably won't take you anywhere when you don't have your own sound in mind.
Best
Jo
that's an interesting read, thanks for all opinions here. I agree with most of what Phil Barone wrote concerning gear.
Here's my story from the last years:
I've been a gear head for about ten years, heavily purchasing and trying mouthpieces. My issue was experiencing the benefits of different designs over a couple of months with every single piece, becoming more independent from gear in general and, finally, settling on something that I really liked and that fit my concept of playing.
I then spent a couple of years with changing every couple of months and spending a lot of money, eventually finding out that the perfect piece didn't exist for me when it came to detail soundwise and in terms of feel.
This was the time I started refacing for myself. After about five years of research (trial and error) I'm now at the point where I can modify a mouthpiece for my individual needs and make it a perfect match with my horn, my reeds and my mind.
The only pieces I've bought since then have been the cheap ones that I will use as blanks to adapt them again to my needs one day.
I couldn't be happier at the moment. I'm playing one mouthpiece per type of horn (soprano, alto, tenor, bari). The only changes I've made in the meantime were changing very little characteristics of my pieces when I felt that I needed a bit more ease at getting a certain sound here or there during the gig that I couldn't achieve with practicing.
With this way of adapting both the mouthpieces (by modifying) and myself (by practicing/getting used to the setup) I've come very close to the sound in my head.
Well, it could be that the sound in my head will change one day but until then I'm playing the perfect mouthpiece for me. Total costs for the tenor piece: 35 bucks for the used blank and a couple of weeks modifying and adapting to it. I've been playing it for two years now without changing anything.
I know this approach takes a lot of time but I can really recommend it to every player who wants to get rid of GAS and find an individual sound.
If you're more into trying a lot of stuff for the fun of it feel free to keep doing it - but be aware that it probably won't take you anywhere when you don't have your own sound in mind.
Best
Jo
Joined
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748 Posts
Hi SOTW,
that's an interesting read, thanks for all opinions here. I agree with most of what Phil Barone wrote concerning gear.
Here's my story from the last years:
I've been a gear head for about ten years, heavily purchasing and trying mouthpieces. My issue was experiencing the benefits of different designs over a couple of months with every single piece, becoming more independent from gear in general and, finally, settling on something that I really liked and that fit my concept of playing.
I then spent a couple of years with changing every couple of months and spending a lot of money, eventually finding out that the perfect piece didn't exist for me when it came to detail soundwise and in terms of feel.
This was the time I started refacing for myself. After about five years of research (trial and error) I'm now at the point where I can modify a mouthpiece for my individual needs and make it a perfect match with my horn, my reeds and my mind.
The only pieces I've bought since then have been the cheap ones that I will use as blanks to adapt them again to my needs one day.
I couldn't be happier at the moment. I'm playing one mouthpiece per type of horn (soprano, alto, tenor, bari). The only changes I've made in the meantime were changing very little characteristics of my pieces when I felt that I needed a bit more ease at getting a certain sound here or there during the gig that I couldn't achieve with practicing.
With this way of adapting both the mouthpieces (by modifying) and myself (by practicing/getting used to the setup) I've come very close to the sound in my head.
Well, it could be that the sound in my head will change one day but until then I'm playing the perfect mouthpiece for me. Total costs for the tenor piece: 35 bucks for the used blank and a couple of weeks modifying and adapting to it. I've been playing it for two years now without changing anything.
I know this approach takes a lot of time but I can really recommend it to every player who wants to get rid of GAS and find an individual sound.
If you're more into trying a lot of stuff for the fun of it feel free to keep doing it - but be aware that it probably won't take you anywhere when you don't have your own sound in mind.
Best
Jo
that's an interesting read, thanks for all opinions here. I agree with most of what Phil Barone wrote concerning gear.
Here's my story from the last years:
I've been a gear head for about ten years, heavily purchasing and trying mouthpieces. My issue was experiencing the benefits of different designs over a couple of months with every single piece, becoming more independent from gear in general and, finally, settling on something that I really liked and that fit my concept of playing.
I then spent a couple of years with changing every couple of months and spending a lot of money, eventually finding out that the perfect piece didn't exist for me when it came to detail soundwise and in terms of feel.
This was the time I started refacing for myself. After about five years of research (trial and error) I'm now at the point where I can modify a mouthpiece for my individual needs and make it a perfect match with my horn, my reeds and my mind.
The only pieces I've bought since then have been the cheap ones that I will use as blanks to adapt them again to my needs one day.
I couldn't be happier at the moment. I'm playing one mouthpiece per type of horn (soprano, alto, tenor, bari). The only changes I've made in the meantime were changing very little characteristics of my pieces when I felt that I needed a bit more ease at getting a certain sound here or there during the gig that I couldn't achieve with practicing.
With this way of adapting both the mouthpieces (by modifying) and myself (by practicing/getting used to the setup) I've come very close to the sound in my head.
Well, it could be that the sound in my head will change one day but until then I'm playing the perfect mouthpiece for me. Total costs for the tenor piece: 35 bucks for the used blank and a couple of weeks modifying and adapting to it. I've been playing it for two years now without changing anything.
I know this approach takes a lot of time but I can really recommend it to every player who wants to get rid of GAS and find an individual sound.
If you're more into trying a lot of stuff for the fun of it feel free to keep doing it - but be aware that it probably won't take you anywhere when you don't have your own sound in mind.
Best
Jo
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5,935 Posts
It is wrong to assert that there are so many sub-standard mouthpieces on the market that players will be hampered in being able to play properly without also doing one of these things:
A. naming those sub standard mouthpieces
or
B. naming those mouthpieces which are good enough, or providing some means for the player to find one good enough.
Many developing players will look on this site to get some advice about how to improve.
They could easily see this bold, widespread 'faulty mouthpiece' assertion by the OP as a confirmation that they should change mouthpieces to solve their problem.
Consequently, this assertion by Phil [who makes many wise and useful statements] will have the opposite effect from the one intended. That is, "Got a problem? Do not like your sound or development? Well, there are a large proportion of mouthpieces out there that are so defective that they will hamper a player and prevent them from proper development. This could be your problem. Change mouthpieces and find out."
I would say that a person should get a tutor or a teacher to OK a mouthpiece. Make sure it is working properly and has the features needed to get the player where they need to be. Then it is nothing more or less than application.
A. naming those sub standard mouthpieces
or
B. naming those mouthpieces which are good enough, or providing some means for the player to find one good enough.
Many developing players will look on this site to get some advice about how to improve.
They could easily see this bold, widespread 'faulty mouthpiece' assertion by the OP as a confirmation that they should change mouthpieces to solve their problem.
Consequently, this assertion by Phil [who makes many wise and useful statements] will have the opposite effect from the one intended. That is, "Got a problem? Do not like your sound or development? Well, there are a large proportion of mouthpieces out there that are so defective that they will hamper a player and prevent them from proper development. This could be your problem. Change mouthpieces and find out."
I would say that a person should get a tutor or a teacher to OK a mouthpiece. Make sure it is working properly and has the features needed to get the player where they need to be. Then it is nothing more or less than application.
Well, well... For a mouthpiece junkie, I can say that Phil Barone is right on the money in his Thesis. It’s been quite interesting to read the replies. I even learned something about drills and cameras! However, the point made in many of the posts is that basically none of the players responding are at the level of those referenced by Phil. No doubt about it, the gear influences the sound. I also completely agree with the people who stress the reed effect. A very underestimated issue. When I read the drill and camera (even golf) analogies, I thought about a probably closer analogy, the electronic instruments (synthesizers etc.). They will have the sound(s) provided by the manufacturer. Who is playing a Yamaha and who is playing a Roland etc. Obviously the players experiment the sounds. Joe Zavinul comes to mind. What did you like more, the lines he played with Cannonball or the sounds he created with the Weather Report and on?
Coming back to our issue. I’d be interested to understand where the break point is between a pro-player and an amateur. Logically, I would think that a real pro mouthpiece would be difficult to play for an amateur?? So are the most expensive mouthpieces made for circumventing the lack of playing technique that the pro-players do not need? Whatever the answer is, the wast majority of the mouthpiece buying community must be others than the top cats out there. How much does the average buyer study baffles, chamber size, facing curves etc., beyond the conventional tip opening (that seems to be the only number of interest). The mouthpiece producers also seem very reluctant to provide these features. I mean, how much do you even know about what you should be looking for in your specific situation. Today you could actually get whatever you want with SYOS type of products. Why can your refacing technician do things to your mp that you couldn’t figure out with the SYOS? So the mouthpiece mania seems to be based more on emotions than hard science. I readily admit that my shopping is basically irrational, mostly because of the fun of it.
Lastly, how about the ligature frenzy that has entered the marketplace lately. Did you have a perfect mp, but you just could not figure out which ligature to use? Somebody showed that you can attach the read with duck tape and it plays just as well. It blows my mind that today you could actually buy a real saxophone with the price of a ligature!
I guess that my thoughts did not help anyone, but for those traveling in this wonderland - you are not alone.
Coming back to our issue. I’d be interested to understand where the break point is between a pro-player and an amateur. Logically, I would think that a real pro mouthpiece would be difficult to play for an amateur?? So are the most expensive mouthpieces made for circumventing the lack of playing technique that the pro-players do not need? Whatever the answer is, the wast majority of the mouthpiece buying community must be others than the top cats out there. How much does the average buyer study baffles, chamber size, facing curves etc., beyond the conventional tip opening (that seems to be the only number of interest). The mouthpiece producers also seem very reluctant to provide these features. I mean, how much do you even know about what you should be looking for in your specific situation. Today you could actually get whatever you want with SYOS type of products. Why can your refacing technician do things to your mp that you couldn’t figure out with the SYOS? So the mouthpiece mania seems to be based more on emotions than hard science. I readily admit that my shopping is basically irrational, mostly because of the fun of it.
Lastly, how about the ligature frenzy that has entered the marketplace lately. Did you have a perfect mp, but you just could not figure out which ligature to use? Somebody showed that you can attach the read with duck tape and it plays just as well. It blows my mind that today you could actually buy a real saxophone with the price of a ligature!
I guess that my thoughts did not help anyone, but for those traveling in this wonderland - you are not alone.
I just happened to be in a Maceo Parker concert a week ago. With all his finger slapping etc., he produces a very distinctive sound from that Brilhart. You can really identify that. But, man, that cat is FUNKY!
By the way, I identified several players that were playing with him already in the 90's.
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Thank you for this very well-timed posting. I just joined the forum and just purchased my first tenor yesterday. I haven't played in forty-five years, but I needed to find a way to get to a peaceful "zen" type of place, so I decided to start playing again. I was completely overwhelmed when I started searching around for a horn thinking it was going to require several thousand dollars to sound even fairly decent, now I can relax and start a journey that I hope can bring some joy into my life. Thank you again Mr. Barone.
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https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...nded-Mouthpiece-for-Concert-band-and-Pep-Band
Re: Recommended Mouthpiece for Concert band and Pep Band
BarrySachs
"There are all kinds of mouthpieces out there. Metal, plastic, rubber, resin, wood... There are expensive mouthpieces, handmade models, vintage models...
Here's the deal. If your a high school student, get a Brilhart 3* and a Rico 2½ reed and learn how to play. Seriously, I'm not saying this to be glib. Go learn how to play on basic equipment. It's cheaper that way. A new Brilhart alto mouthpiece only costs $30 or so."
post number four
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I think there's something else which needs to be considered here, however (and quite possibly others have mentioned this already - because honestly, no I did not real every reply in this 5-page thread):
Given the advent of internet commerce, the availability of such a wide array of musical gear, and the relative 'ease' of acquiring it, has to be taken into consideration.
So, I understand and agree with the OP's general feeling that a 'grail' hunt for that piece of equipment which will give you EXACTLY what you (think you may) want (at the current time) is sort of a waste of energy as well as funds....
...and also agree that many if not most dealers have grabbed this notion and come up with marketing hoopla to inflate and take advantage of these, um, 'themes'...
I find nothing wrong with folks experimenting with various gear which is available, various horns, all that...just for the sake of seeing what is out there. Because there's a WIDE range of stuff out there, really...differing in how they sound, perform, and respond, etc.
But this REQUIRES the buyer to formulate in their own mind, their own expectations...or else it indeed can turn into just a somewhat wild and neverending spend-fest
Given the advent of internet commerce, the availability of such a wide array of musical gear, and the relative 'ease' of acquiring it, has to be taken into consideration.
So, I understand and agree with the OP's general feeling that a 'grail' hunt for that piece of equipment which will give you EXACTLY what you (think you may) want (at the current time) is sort of a waste of energy as well as funds....
...and also agree that many if not most dealers have grabbed this notion and come up with marketing hoopla to inflate and take advantage of these, um, 'themes'...
I find nothing wrong with folks experimenting with various gear which is available, various horns, all that...just for the sake of seeing what is out there. Because there's a WIDE range of stuff out there, really...differing in how they sound, perform, and respond, etc.
But this REQUIRES the buyer to formulate in their own mind, their own expectations...or else it indeed can turn into just a somewhat wild and neverending spend-fest
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1,150 Posts
AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM ME:
this seems much ado about very little - personally, as a technically challenged human being (poor motor skills, damaged hands) I need every advantage I can get when it comes to horn, mouthpiece, reeds, et al. The solution? Do what works best for you. Spend the money, don't spend the money. Trane was obsessed with mouthpieces, so was Stitt, Schildkraut, Bird (Schildkraut told me all about this; more if you want to hear); Rollins I am sure was always experimenting. Dolphy, always. McLean in pics has a lot of different pieces. What - me worry?
(and one of the very reasons my playing improved radically from my 30s into my 50s was my discovery of mouthpiece improvements. So what? Listen to the recordings, it's all there).
this seems much ado about very little - personally, as a technically challenged human being (poor motor skills, damaged hands) I need every advantage I can get when it comes to horn, mouthpiece, reeds, et al. The solution? Do what works best for you. Spend the money, don't spend the money. Trane was obsessed with mouthpieces, so was Stitt, Schildkraut, Bird (Schildkraut told me all about this; more if you want to hear); Rollins I am sure was always experimenting. Dolphy, always. McLean in pics has a lot of different pieces. What - me worry?
(and one of the very reasons my playing improved radically from my 30s into my 50s was my discovery of mouthpiece improvements. So what? Listen to the recordings, it's all there).
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1,740 Posts
I think this is a very interesting point. I believe StefGrani is correct when he points out that there's relatively little discussion on this forum or in the marketing materials of various mouthpiece makers regarding actual features of mouthpiece design and how they impact sound. We all seem fairly committed to certain tip sizes, but there's little discussion of chamber size, facing curves, types of baffles, etc. There are some exceptions: Theo Wanne's website, for example, has some info about how various elements of design impact sound. But more often we're just told that a mouthpiece is intended to sound like this or that model once played by a famous player, or even that the mouthpiece is intended to sound like the player himself.
That may be part of the reason the hunt for mouthpiece can become an expensive, trial-and-error adventure. We don't know what we're looking for, until we find it! At which point, we may have no idea why a particular mouthpiece is right for us, other than it feels right. That would probably describe my journey to date. It took me years and not a few dollars to discover what works for me, and throughout that process, the search was guided not by any knowledge of how various design elements effect sound and feel, but mostly by written reviews and sound clips online. Which are very useful. But the problem is, those guys who do the sound clips tend to sound fantastic on everything they play!
So maybe we can encourage mouthpiece makers to talk/write more about facing curves, chamber shapes, etc, and how this impacts sound production? Maybe there are some existing sources people can direct us to? Maybe to some degree, the GAS epidemic can be alleviated by more specific knowledge about what we should be looking for?
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And who is it that wants to end the gas epidemic? The mouthpiece makers? I think not..
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