Sax on the Web Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I recently bought a Conn 10M from a SOTW member for $700. It was made in 1960. I bought it with the understanding that it was in excellent playing condition. I was warned that it was a 'players horn', that it was a bit dented and that the neck had been resoldered. I played it for a week but I also bought a Otto Link mouthpiece that was making playing a challenge. The other day on SOTW a guy told me to have a tech look it over.. that my difficulties with the Link could be related to the horn's state of repair. I did that today and the tech said the pads were in poor adjustment. A light touch does not seal many of the pads. In a discussion with the seller he suggested that I am being too picky. In so many words he said, what do you expect from a $700 Conn 10M.

So, what do you think. Am I being too picky? The tech is Carlo Cennamo, who works out of Seattle. He's a meticulous repair tech in the vein of Matt Stohrer. In fact they are friends. Is Carlo being to picky? He told me that horns come out of his shop better than they did from the factory. Is that really necessary?

I replaced all the pads myself on my Conn 22M. I made sure that the pads sealed with a very light touch and that the timing, or regulation was as perfect as I could get it. It plays great now. It is much easier to play than the 10M and the Link works well with it. I want to be fair to the seller and to myself.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,927 Posts
“Excellent playing condition” is pretty straightforward.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
“Excellent playing condition” is pretty straightforward.
It is easy to get used to leaky pads. Over time you unconsciously just press harder. I believe him when he says it played great for him. He believed it to be in excellent shape.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Another way of asking the question is, should I just accept that for $700 I am going to have to do some repair work?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
So is $700 for a 10M.

Sounds like you got about $700 worth of 10M for your $700 really.
Dang.. you answered my question before I had a chance to ask it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,381 Posts
Even so, you did pay for a 10M in "excellent playing condition," which the seller didn't deliver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Even so, you did pay for a 10M in "excellent playing condition," which the seller didn't deliver.
Well here is what he actually said about it.

''Late model 10M tenor, serial number 891,6XX, built in 1960. The pads have all been replaced recently. The upper stack was good when I got this horn about 2 years ago, so these pads were left on and all of the other pads have been replaced since then. The Ab/G# key does stick at times which seems somewhat common on these 10Ms and does not stick for a month or so after cleaning the pad. There are some dents, past evidence of repair/rippling, scuffing/scratching and a few repairs, mostly on the neck. The neck was re-soldered and has a patch over a crack that was from the screw tightening slit to the joint. The neck also has some small denting on the sides. There are some scratches, damage repair or some straightening that was done on the lip of the bell. Most if not all of the cork(s) have also been replaced. Felts are red, with one green felt. A triple ring strap ring was added a bit lower than the original. Has most of the original finish on the body which looks shiny. Very little if any finish is left on the neck. It plays well and I played it regularly for about a year since this work has been done. Includes a brand new SKB hard shell case. No mouthpiece. This is a players horn an not a show horn which should be tweaked after shipping to address any shipping issues and to setup to your liking. I tried to describe everything as best as I could.''
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,927 Posts
This type of issue comes down to whether the seller and buyer have a similar understanding of what constitutes “good”. Too many times I have seen claims of “best mouthpiece I have ever played”, when it really means “first decent mouthpiece I have played since I started 5 months ago”.

Sellers need to be careful with their claims or risk getting jettisoned from the Marketplace for false claims. Buyers need to do their homework before they start purchasing - hence the concept of requiring members to wait for 6 months before they participate in the Marketplace.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
This type of issue comes down to whether the seller and buyer have a similar understanding of what constitutes “good”. Too many times I have seen claims of “best mouthpiece I have ever played”, when it really means “first decent mouthpiece I have played since I started 5 months ago”.

Sellers need to be careful with their claims or risk getting jettisoned from the Marketplace for false claims. Buyers need to do their homework before they start purchasing - hence the concept of requiring members to wait for 6 months before they participate in the Marketplace.
Here are his words from an email: ''this horn is a beast, it plays really well. Huge sound and freeblowing. You are going to like it. Aesthetically it is not really clean, but mechanically the pads are timed right and seal well and can be played loud or at a whisper, even the low notes.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,927 Posts
Well here is what he actually said about it.

''Late model 10M tenor, serial number 891,6XX, built in 1960. The pads have all been replaced recently. The upper stack was good when I got this horn about 2 years ago, so these pads were left on and all of the other pads have been replaced since then. The Ab/G# key does stick at times which seems somewhat common on these 10Ms and does not stick for a month or so after cleaning the pad. There are some dents, past evidence of repair/rippling, scuffing/scratching and a few repairs, mostly on the neck. The neck was re-soldered and has a patch over a crack that was from the screw tightening slit to the joint. The neck also has some small denting on the sides. There are some scratches, damage repair or some straightening that was done on the lip of the bell. Most if not all of the cork(s) have also been replaced. Felts are red, with one green felt. A triple ring strap ring was added a bit lower than the original. Has most of the original finish on the body which looks shiny. Very little if any finish is left on the neck. It plays well and I played it regularly for about a year since this work has been done. Includes a brand new SKB hard shell case. No mouthpiece. This is a players horn an not a show horn which should be tweaked after shipping to address any shipping issues and to setup to your liking. I tried to describe everything as best as I could.''
Thanks for sharing that. I don’t see the claim of “excellent playing condition”. I wouldn’t have touched that horn, but it sounds like an honest description. Get it tweaked and play it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Another way of asking the question is, should I just accept that for $700 I am going to have to do some repair work?
From my experience, you should assume that you are going to have to put at least $200-$300 into any vintage horn you buy - especially one with post on body construction. They are way more delicate than you may think and often get knocked out of alignment, or slightly bent during the shipping process. Also, as you mentioned before, "excellent playing condition" is very subjective, as different players have different demands in terms of playing condition. I would just fix the horn and enjoy it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for sharing that. I don’t see the claim of “excellent playing condition”. I wouldn’t have touched that horn, but it sounds like an honest description. Get it tweaked and play it.
I think the misunderstanding is about what makes for a well adjusted horn. In my experience with replacing all the pads on my 22M I took great pains to insure that the keys just needed a light touch. The 10M's pads do seal, if you put enough pressure on the keys. Are you saying I got my money's worth? I don't want to be unreasonable, nor do I want to be taken advantage of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,006 Posts
Here are his words from an email: ''this horn is a beast, it plays really well. Huge sound and freeblowing. You are going to like it. Aesthetically it is not really clean, but mechanically the pads are timed right and seal well and can be played loud or at a whisper, even the low notes.
With a "gorilla grip" one can make the pads on just about any sax "seal well", and get a huge sound. I read the "description" in the post above and to me it appears you got exactly what the seller described. The problem with "it plays well (for me)" is you have no idea what kind of player the seller is. Have a tech whose work you trust do a PC or a Clean Oil Adjust for whatever it costs and you will have a good playing saxophone. I have a Conn 10M and I love it. Just get it fixed and enjoy it. In my opinion the sax in that condition was offered at a fair price.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
With a "gorilla grip" one can make the pads on just about any sax "seal well", and get a huge sound. I read the "description" in the post above and to me it appears you got exactly what the seller described. The problem with "it plays well (for me)" is you have no idea what kind of player the seller is. Have a tech whose work you trust do a PC or a Clean Oil Adjust for whatever it costs and you will have a good playing saxophone. I have a Conn 10M and I love it. Just get it fixed and enjoy it. In my opinion the sax in that condition was offered at a fair price.
All righty then.. don't worry, be happy... as Bobby said, eh? I can adjust or replace pads myself and a neck tenon refit cost me just $23 for the 22M. I am starting to feel like I did not get ripped off. Now I can go back to the jazz fest and enjoy the music without that nagging discontented feeling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Even so, you did pay for a 10M in "excellent playing condition," which the seller didn't deliver.
Having looked over the for sale ad there is actually NO mention of ''excellent playing condition''. But he did say: ''this horn is a beast, it plays really well. Huge sound and freeblowing. You are going to like it. Aesthetically it is not really clean, but mechanically the pads are timed right and seal well and can be played loud or at a whisper, even the low notes.''.. which I translated into meaning excellent playing condition. I am not buying any more horns through the mail.
 

·
Forum Contributor 2017
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Several years ago, I also sold a 1960 10M to a member, for the same price. The only thing wrong with it was that the neck was twisted and was slightly out of alignment, but was fully functional. Otherwise, the horn looked good and was, indeed, a beast. The buyer had his instructor play it, who was amazed at the sound it put out. I underpriced the horn back then, because I wanted to move it on (having kept the nice Berg that that came with iti), and on behalf of the Forum. Based on that transaction, I think you got a fair deal--have the horn tweaked and regulated, and if the neck bothers you, check on ebay for a replacement. You'll still have a monster horn for a decent price.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,844 Posts
On thing that doesn't make sense to me is that you said you replaced the pads on your other horn and adjusted them so that they sealed with a very light touch. Yet you needed Carlo to tell you that these pads didn't seal with a very light touch. So why not just fix the leaks yourself? This doesn't jive. I am aware of Carlo's reputation. I never did business with him. However I have taken my horns to several techs that have claimed a horn needed an overhaul, when in fact it needed a inexpensive adjustment. These people are in the business of selling repair work. Its almost seems like you think the horn should play like a post Carlo overhaul. Send it back to the seller. I see that you did pay $100 less than he was asking for it. Cheap price for a 10m.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
On thing that doesn't make sense to me is that you said you replaced the pads on your other horn and adjusted them so that they sealed with a very light touch. Yet you needed Carlo to tell you that these pads didn't seal with a very light touch. So why not just fix the leaks yourself? This doesn't jive. I am aware of Carlo's reputation. I never did business with him. However I have taken my horns to several techs that have claimed a horn needed an overhaul, when in fact it needed a inexpensive adjustment. These people are in the business of selling repair work. Its almost seems like you think the horn should play like a post Carlo overhaul. Send it back to the seller. I see that you did pay $100 less than he was asking for it. Cheap price for a 10m.
I took the 10 M to Carlo because he was at the jazz fest that is happening in town. I just bought a Otto Link mouthpiece and I have been having to make adjustments to the way I play and the kind of reeds. Several SOTW members told me to have a tech look the horn over just to make sure it wasn't the horn that was giving me fits. My understanding was that the horn was in perfect playing order (or my wishful thinking). Last night I played the 22m and switched back and forth between it and the 10m. With a heavier touch I find the 10m plays just fine. Carlo freaked me out with his assessment of the horn. His prices are ridiculously high but good for him if he can get it. I'll take the 10m apart for a clean and oil. I may just refloat some of the pads. I don't think they need replacing. I don't expect a post Carlo rebuild but I most certainly can do a better job than the seller. I'd assumed that the seller had a professional tech do the work he specified had been done to it. I think a neck refit is in order. I'll have a tech do that... not Carlo. I guess I'll keep the horn and fix it up myself. I am a 70 year old man living on soc sec. I undertook re-padding the 22m because having tech's do the work costs too much for my budget.
 

·
Registered
Alto sax, Tenor sax, Clarinet
Joined
·
1,306 Posts
To TMKR: Recognize that many leaks can occur during shipping. I purchased my 10M from a very reputable shop, and when it arrived via UPS it had some of the largest leaks I have ever seen. I contacted the seller and shipped it back to them with a shipping label they supplied. They fixed the leaks and sent it back and the 2nd time I got it, the horn played great. Shipping horns sometimes causes problems.
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top