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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, i search on sotw but there was not much information about this...

so i'm trying to adjust my pitch tendencies on the horn, and as very times discussed there are two ways:

a) jaw movement
b) throat re-shaping
C) the combination of both

My routine to this as been overtones, mouthpiece exercises, and flat the pitch in all the register of the sax. I feel that i'm not altering anything, or very few with the throat. What kind of exercises do you recommend to develop this?

thanks
 

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There's also air speed/instensity.
 

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OK, here we go. I learn stuff everyday while I'm teaching. I was trying to explain this to a student...............When I play a high D for example and bend it down, I can bend it really low probably to a G or F.( I haven't out how low I can go, so I don't know the exact note) I do this all with my throat. My jaw and embouchure don't move at all. I control all my pitch tendencies with this throat movement. It's hard to explain but what I can tell you is that my Adam's apple moves down when I bend a note down. The student noticed this and commented on it. I then did it in a mirror and saw it too.

If you tilt your head up and put your hand on your Adam's Apple, see if you can move it down. It's not a normal movement but if you can do it then that is the same movement that I do when I bend a pitch down. It's a feeling like your trying to expand your throat down into your neck. It's a bit weird feeling at first.
 

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OK, here we go. I learn stuff everyday while I'm teaching. I was trying to explain this to a student...............When I play a high D for example and bend it down, I can bend it really low probably to a G or F.( I haven't out how low I can go, so I don't know the exact note) I do this all with my throat. My jaw and embouchure don't move at all. I control all my pitch tendencies with this throat movement. It's hard to explain but what I can tell you is that my Adam's apple moves down when I bend a note down. The student noticed this and commented on it. I then did it in a mirror and saw it too.

If you tilt your head up and put your hand on your Adam's Apple, see if you can move it down. It's not a normal movement but if you can do it then that is the same movement that I do when I bend a pitch down. It's a feeling like your trying to expand your throat down into your neck. It's a bit weird feeling at first.
thanks a lot! i will check that out and back to you in a few days... my first feeling trying to do that was cough.. lol maybe that's that the firs weird experience...
i will check my adam's apple
 

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thanks a lot! i will check that out and back to you in a few days... my first feeling trying to do that was cough.. lol maybe that's that the firs weird experience...
i will check my adam's apple
Yes that moves the Adam's Apple but the wrong way. It moves up when I cough. You want to move it down. I've been trying to figure out a way to describe so students get it for the last couple of years................
 

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Yes that moves the Adam's Apple but the wrong way. It moves up when I cough. You want to move it down. I've been trying to figure out a way to describe so students get it for the last couple of years................
i can do that when i sing, without changing my embouchure, a very low pitch...i don't know if it is a start...
 

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Mouthpiece only exercises. Play scale exercises (or anything else, ftm) over at least an octave on the mouthpiece alone, with constant embouchure pressure. Practising it with a double embouchure will make you much more sensitive to changes in embouchure pressure, and make sure you stay loose enough.

can do that when i sing, without changing my embouchure, a very low pitch...i don't know if it is a start...
It is a start, and a good one. Just do it as though you were singing.
 

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Do the following and feel what your tounge and throat does:
no mpc, no other things, simply whistle notes from high to low.
Can you feel what happens inside your mouth and downwards?
It is the same thing you do when playing different notes on mpc alone.
And the same thing with your complete saxophone.
It is a bit like riding a bicylce: once you found out how to do, you say "now I know what they were talking about".

Hope that helps a bit.

Markus
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Mouthpiece only exercises. Play scale exercises (or anything else, ftm) over at least an octave on the mouthpiece alone, with constant embouchure pressure. Practising it with a double embouchure will make you much more sensitive to changes in embouchure pressure, and make sure you stay loose enough.



It is a start, and a good one. Just do it as though you were singing.
yes i daily do mouthpiece exercises (practice routine) 5 min... i do one octave and play chromatic and thirds..i try not to change my embouchure..
but double embouchure i just don't like...

i will develop the singing routine
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Do the following and feel what your tounge and throat does:
no mpc, no other things, simply whistle notes from high to low.
Can you feel what happens inside your mouth and downwards?
It is the same thing you do when playing different notes on mpc alone.
And the same thing with your complete saxophone.
It is a bit like riding a bicylce: once you found out how to do, you say "now I know what they were talking about".

Hope that helps a bit.

Markus

thanks i will see and report soon =)

whit middle B i can go to Bb only by throat, but the sound is bad and inconsistent... but it's a progress...
 

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OK, here we go. I learn stuff everyday while I'm teaching. I was trying to explain this to a student...............When I play a high D for example and bend it down, I can bend it really low probably to a G or F.( I haven't out how low I can go, so I don't know the exact note) I do this all with my throat. My jaw and embouchure don't move at all. I control all my pitch tendencies with this throat movement. It's hard to explain but what I can tell you is that my Adam's apple moves down when I bend a note down. The student noticed this and commented on it. I then did it in a mirror and saw it too.

If you tilt your head up and put your hand on your Adam's Apple, see if you can move it down. It's not a normal movement but if you can do it then that is the same movement that I do when I bend a pitch down. It's a feeling like your trying to expand your throat down into your neck. It's a bit weird feeling at first.
Hi Nef,
It would be helpful to hear what that sounds like. I can get down about a step or so before the note breaks and drops the octave. And while my throat does change, it's still not without the cooperation of the embouchure that the pitch changes (for me).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi Nef,
It would be helpful to hear what that sounds like. I can get down about a step or so before the note breaks and drops the octave. And while my throat does change, it's still not without the cooperation of the embouchure that the pitch changes (for me).
that's exactly what happens to me when i played high D. I'm glad this thread is helping more players..
 

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I had a member here ask me to do a recording of what I'm talking about. Ask and you shall receive. I did one better I made a youtube video. I hope it helps. I've been trying to explain this in a way that I can say a few things and suddenly the student can do it for the last 10 years. I haven't figured out the magical words that will miraculously give the ability yet. I have had a number of students that could do it after I explained it over the years but they are in the minority. I ask them how they did it or to describe it to me in hopes that I can get a clearer idea how they did it but they all say "I just did it. I don't know how" . Which doesn't help me in teaching it. This video is my best attempt to show you and describe what is going on for me when I do it. This is what and how I teach students to do it. Hope it helps.

 

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Discussion Starter #15
neff you should have a thanks button... you are a great teacher, i totally understand when you said the "i just did thing" i had a couple teachers like that in the past.. they only last for a couple weeks.. that a difference between a teacher and a really one, and you are a good one.

keep helping sotw players

seeing you video i think i was doing everything alright. Just need to develop to get to lower notes. But it's good to know i'm in a good path :lick:
 

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neff you should have a thanks button... you are a great teacher, i totally understand when you said the "i just did thing" i had a couple teachers like that in the past.. they only last for a couple weeks.. that a difference between a teacher and a really one, and you are a good one.

keep helping sotw players

seeing you video i think i was doing everything alright. Just need to develop to get to lower notes. But it's good to know i'm in a good path :lick:
Good, I'm glad it helped. It's a hard concept to communicate in words. I think the visual helps.

If anyone else has any more insight on what I'm talking about and what's happening please let me know. I'm always interested in learning better ways to describe things or communicate. Some of the best things I learn are from my students.
 

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neff you should have a thanks button... you are a great teacher, i totally understand when you said the "i just did thing" i had a couple teachers like that in the past.. they only last for a couple weeks.. that a difference between a teacher and a really one, and you are a good one.

keep helping sotw players

seeing you video i think i was doing everything alright. Just need to develop to get to lower notes. But it's good to know i'm in a good path :lick:
Nefertiti, I agree it is difficult to describe to someone exactly what happens in your vocal tract when you play the sax, I have found using syllables is the easyest way to try and communicate what you are doing, and the shape you are trying to make with your throat and chops. I use the syllables Hay for my middle register, Hoe for lower and Hee for upper/altissimo. Using the H syllables IMO keeps your larynx in the open position throughout the range, also singing the notes using the same syllables helps
 

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Nefertiti, I agree it is difficult to describe to someone exactly what happens in your vocal tract when you play the sax, I have found using syllables is the easyest way to try and communicate what you are doing, and the shape you are trying to make with your throat and chops. I use the syllables Hay for my middle register, Hoe for lower and Hee for upper/altissimo. Using the H syllables IMO keeps your larynx in the open position throughout the range, also singing the notes using the same syllables helps
That's a good way to describe it. So what I'm doing with bending the note is like going from a Hee to and exaggerated Hoe. So if you guys try that right now. Going from Hee to Hoe is the movement. But you also have to change the pitch to move the Adam's Apple can get the result I am getting. If you say Hee so it is middle C. Then say Hoe down a fifth to F. That is the exact motion for me. Now practice doing that over and over until you can do it with out making nose but just blowing air. Even try to exaggerate the Hoe movement further, as far as you can. Once you have it. Try playing an altissimo A on tenor and while blowing change that position from a Hee to the lower Hoe without vocalize.

For those of you trying to get this, let me know what happens. Steve
 

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For those of you trying to get this, let me know what happens. Steve

Hi Steve,
Here's my report from this afternoon's practice…

On the tenor, starting on the altissimo high A, a "hee" to "hoe" movement alone makes the altissimo A drop immediately to a middle C with no glissando at all.

In order to replicate the glissando effect that you demonstrated I have to move my tongue from a very forward position to a position somewhat father back, sort of the whistling motion with the tongue. And what I discover is that this tongue movement effects a change in pressure on the reed (from the embouchure). It's very subtle and easy to miss but it's definitely there. And there is a yodel effect at about F sharp or F in which it will jump down to a high C. Using "hoe" adam's apple position drops that C down yet another octave to middle C.

Starting on the palm key D and dropping down (using "hoe") with no change in pressure at the reed the note drops the octave (even with the octave key) with no glissando. If I use the tongue (as described above) I can get down about a B before it drops the octave. When using the tongue in this manner the adams apple does not seem to move appreciably. When I move the adam's apple ("hoe") consciously the note immediate drops the octave. Without some kind of pressure change at the reed I can't glissando.

Interestingly, when playing the mouthpiece (tenor) alone my sort of "home base" note is around a concert D. That's quite a bit lower than yours and I wonder if this has something to do with the whole thing. I can't move pitch on the mouthpiece at all without some pressure change at the reed, but I get about an octave. Interestingly, the adam's apple moves automatically in this case, almost as a side effect.

PS watched the video again and noticed that you did the mouthpiece pitch bend from your "normal" pitch of G sharp downwards. I was wondering if you are able to bend up from that G sharp as well, or is that your top note? For me, my "normal" note being a D I can go up to a G and down to a G. So my "normal" note is about in the middle of that range. Not sure what, if anything that might mean…except that if I am already at a lower "home" note there's not so far to go when bending down as if I had a higher "home" note?
 
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