[saftaffe]

How to go about adjustning the key levers of low C and Eb (right pinky finger keys)?
The lever for Eb is much deeper down, when pressed, compared to the open low C, which makes it impossible to slide/roll my pinky from Eb to C.

The simple fix would be to lower the key height of both, bringing them closer to each other, with the felt in the key guard. But I like the height (intonation, sound etc).

Is this something I can do myself (like bending a little or something), or should I leave it to a professional so I don't break my sax?

 

[DonaldL]

I had this problem with my Mk 7 alto since I bought it used in 1978. I took it to a new tech last year for a tune up, he noticed it, and simply bent it with pliers to even it out. Then I wondered why no other techs had fixed it over the years.

So yes it is simply bending it. As to whether a pro should do it, I don't know.

 

[Dr G]

How to go about adjustning the key levers of low C and Eb (right pinky finger keys)?
The lever for Eb is much deeper down, when pressed, compared to the open low C, which makes it impossible to slide/roll my pinky from Eb to C.

The simple fix would be to lower the key height of both, bringing them closer to each other, with the felt in the key guard. But I like the height (intonation, sound etc).

If you change the height of the Eb key, then you will have the reverse problem going from the depressed C to the open Eb.

Think it through before you make any changes.

 

[saxoclese]

One of the issues to watch out for when bending these key touches up or down is you can inadvertently also bend the arm that attaches to the keycup depending upon how soft the brass is and cause the pad to leak. What I do is use a pair of specialty pliers to keep one arm from bending while I bend the other. You might just consider lowering the low C touch. It can sometimes be done by hand just using extra downward pressure. I would insert a flat craft stick between the pad resonator and tonehole when doing this. The arm going to the low C keycup is less likely to bend than the arm to the Eb. Good luck. Hope this helps.

 

[1saxman]

The keys look correct at rest, so bending either one doesn't seem to be the answer to me. The C is not going down too far to roll back onto the Eb, but the Eb is going down too far to roll onto the C. I would lower the adjustable bumper in the Eb guard. This note usually doesn't have to be as open as the C and possibly you can get by with the opening height adjustment.

 

[StuartSax]

Assuming you have screw in adjustable bumpers, you can lower the height of the C or limit the opening of the Eb.

If you decide to bend, take it to a tech.

(Just read the post above so you have two good answers now

 

[turf3]

Given the photo, if you think the pad openings are correct, I'd bend the C key down (no further adjustment required) rather than lifting the Eb key up (then you'll have to add cork to keep its pad opening the same as it was). But that decision will depend on the details of yoru particular instrument and hand.

I like to have the keys so that when Eb is depressed, it's just the tiniest bit lower than the UN depressed C next to it. The slide from Eb to C requires you to push your fingertip from one key to the next, in the direction that your muscles are weakest. You need for your finger not to be sliding up a step. The slide from C to Eb, however, has you pulling your fingertip from one to the other, in a direction where the muscles are quite strong. So going up a step in this direction is much easier.

Imagine you've got a refrigerator on a two wheel dolly and you need to go up a step. If you try to push it up from below, you'll have to have the strength of Atlas; but if you turn around, step up on the step yourself, and then pull it up after you, it's easy peasy.

 

[saftaffe]

Done. Now I'm gonna shred Eb and C all night.

?

Thanks for the advice and other things...

 

[whaler]

You’ll get used to it.
Buy an old 10M and you’ll never complain about heights of keys or little stuff on Selmer style saxes again.

 

[turf3]

That's right, because the superior key action of the 10M will make you sell your Selmer style horns. Light, positive, fast, reliable; designed in conformance with the way the actual human hand's anatomy works, rather than in accordance with theory. What more could you want?

 

[Mike T]

Which is why I still prefer my 1937 10M to my 1967 MkVI. The latter is a very good horn, but is seriously lacking in ergonomics by comparison with the 10M.

 

[MM]

I have Mk VI alto and tenor and currently not interested in swapping for a 6M and 10M. But am noticing a "speed limit" for low Eb to low C transitions on both horns. I am wondering if I ought to to retrain my technique.. Instead of sliding the tip of my right pinky which is already depressed in a direction towards the bell of the horn, I should relax the downward pressure as I slide it towards the C spatula, then exert more pressure once it clears the roller. This avoids trying to close the C pad from the roller which requires a lot of force, which is problematic due to my pinky trigger finger.

Any comments?

Oddly the alto seems more problematic, I think due to a less ergonomic location of the low Eb spatula. My alto also seemed to require more pressure to open the Eb so I loosened its spring tension.

I will first try the retraining. If it doesn't solve the problem I may look into custom keywork for those two notes.

 

[turf3]

Well, first of all, the spring tension of your low C key could be reduced. As long as it opens properly when in playing position, and it doesn't bounce too much, that's enough

Then, you can bend the C or Eb key as I described up above, so that the Eb key when depressed is just a wee bit lower than the UN depressed C key. You could even set it so the Eb is even or a tiny bit higher than the C key.

Again, consider a refrigerator on a two wheel dolly. Try to push that up a 1" step and it's darn near impossible, but it's easy to pull it up a 6" high step.

I doubt custom keywork is needed.

 

[Builder01]

Vintage horns with the forked Eb allow you to get around this roller problem all together. All my vintage horns have this feature and I make sure it is adjusted properly. It's a great alternate fingering for Eb.

 

[turf3]

Yes, the fork Eb is a certain cure - however, I have some horns with and some without; so I've had to train myself NOT to use that fingering - don't want to go for it and it's not there.

 

[MM]

I've found reference to wrist position and wrist motion in another thread. Ensuring that I don't rotate the wrist and forearm too much in the counterclockwise direction is helping me. I was picking up some bad habits working on altissimo fingerings, some of which use the right pinky spatulas.

 

[MM]

Again, consider a refrigerator on a two wheel dolly. Try to push that up a 1" step and it's darn near impossible, but it's easy to pull it up a 6" high step.

I understand what you are saying about the refrigerator on the dolly. But I don't understand how to apply that to the Eb and and C levers. How would I pull up on the end of my right pinky?

 

[turf3]

I understand what you are saying about the refrigerator on the dolly. But I don't understand how to apply that to the Eb and and C levers. How would I pull up on the end of my right pinky?

When you're going from Eb to C, you are extending the little finger out away from the side of your hand, and to some extent you're extending its length too. This is a combination of the two weakest motions of that finger.

When you're going from C to Eb, you're bringing in the little finger both laterally and curling toward your palm a bit. These are gripping type motions and your hands are very strong in this direction. In general all tensor motions of the hands are stronger than extensor motions. So whenever your fingers are having to extend to actuate a key, you want to make that slide as easy as possible. That'll make the contraction motion a little more difficult but you've got tons of strength to spare in that direction.

 

[MM]

Thanks tur3. And one way to make the extensor motion easier is to bend the key(s) as you described?

I may have more of a challenge than others, I have some trigger finger in my pinkies. If I fully extend them flat while pressing down with the tip, the tendon moves enough that I will encounter an "snapping" sensation when trying to curve the pinky and move the tip back towards the center of the hand. For example when going from Eb to C, then going back to Eb may cause the snap. I'm told this is due to a bump or knot in the tendon such that it doesn't slide smoothly in its sheath.

The snapping or hang-up introduces a small delay so can result in coordination issues. Too much snapping in a short time seems to irritate the tendon and cause pain. I try to avoid this by careful choice of hand position (and by NOT playing bass clarinet.)

Lately I've been cocking my right wrist in such a way to reduce right pinky stretch. For the left, I've had the entire spatula adjusted.

 

[skeller047]

@MM don’t mess with trigger finger. I you haven’t seen an orthopedist, please do so soon. My wife had this condition, and the MD had her wear a brace on her finger for a few months, which solved the problem. From what I understand this is caused by a swelling of the tendon, and the snapping you describe is caused by the tendon hanging up on its sheath. The tendon can snap, which then requires surgery. Keeping the finger immobilized in a neutral position allows the irritated, swollen tendon to heal.