[Bkenes]

I have a neck that is 0.5 inches too short (someone sawed it off).
The metal is thin so I don't know if it will be stable enough if I solder an extension right on the tube.
I think it will have to overlap somehow to be stable. Or maybe a hard solder job will be strong enough?

How do you guys do it (if you have ever needed to extend a neck)?

 

[turf3]

Normal method would be to cut a piece of brass sheet, roll it into a little tube, soft solder it in place. It will need to overlap both in the wrapping direction and over the original neck. A butt joint won't hold up in soft solder. You could braze it, in which case you could get a butt joint to hold, but your metal work has to be perfectly aligned, no gaps, and that level of heat is also likely to cause warpage of the parts. A little overlap and consequent minor inaccuracy of bore probably will not have any noticeable effect.

 

[1saxman]

Some necks are rolled into the cone shape and soldered, so you can't braze because it would boil out the solder holding it together. If you just solder on a tube that slips over the neck, then your extension will be too big in diameter - you have to expand an end of a tube of the correct diameter and slip it on. Then you can also solder on and end ferrule for reinforcement like a factory neck. The cork will cover all this so it should be a good job. KB sax can do this work in New York and I'm sure someone in Europe can too. Just curious, how do you know how much neck you need? Did you compare it to another neck of the exact same type?
BTW, the extra 1/2" of straight tube (no taper) will not affect anything because its not tapered.

 

[milandro]

I once had a baritone where someone had added a length of tubing. They had put a very nice “ sock” of a larger tube and (I assume soldered) outside and added some tube inside , which may have been soldered before together ( it felt smooth inside). It was so well made it looked factory made. I only discovered later than the neck was extended.

Sorry I have no pictures, this was a very long time ago before I started to keep the pictures of the horns that I’ve bought and sold

 

[saxoclese]

A clean, well matched butt joint could be silver soldered to extend the neck with a brass tube of similar proportions. Rio Grande sells a 22 gauge silver solder wire that is labeled "extra easy" with a flow temperature of 1207° F. The body of the neck could be wrapped with a damp cloth to act as a "heat sink". If someone has a lathe, a brass rod could be turned to the required O.D. and then the first 5/8" bored to the required I.D. A short extension of the solid rod left attached will make it easier to hold the pieces to be brazed together. Once they are joined. a jeweler's saw can be used to cut off the solid portion of the rod leaving the "tube". Any irregularity inside the neck from the silver solder flowing inside at the joint location can be smoothed with a file or a Dremel attachment since it is just 1/2" from the opening.

 

[Bkenes]

Some necks are rolled into the cone shape and soldered, so you can't braze because it would boil out the solder holding it together. If you just solder on a tube that slips over the neck, then your extension will be too big in diameter - you have to expand an end of a tube of the correct diameter and slip it on. Then you can also solder on and end ferrule for reinforcement like a factory neck. The cork will cover all this so it should be a good job. KB sax can do this work in New York and I'm sure someone in Europe can too. Just curious, how do you know how much neck you need? Did you compare it to another neck of the exact same type?
BTW, the extra 1/2" of straight tube (no taper) will not affect anything because its not tapered.

I'd say that the missing length of the neck naturally mess with intonation.
So adding 1/2" of straight tube will correct the intonation to it's original state.
Just think of the toneholes - removing metal from the tonehole will change intonation slightly if it's overdone. You wouldnt want to remove as much as 1/20" from a tonehole. That would mess things up. Removing 1/2" from the neck is worse.
Maybe I missinterpreted your statement?
Best regards

 

[Bkenes]

Thanks everyone!

I'll make the extension on the lathe and keep a part of the brass tube on, as you suggests saxoclese! That's a great idea.
This will be a later project though. I have a long list of other saxophones that are first in line. I'll post some pictures when this is done though. And maybe I'll take some photos during the process as well.

 

[milandro]

I think that many if not a lot of baritones were tampered with when the mouthpieces changed from short to long .

This happened with all sizes of saxophones but with the baritone ( and soprano) it was very noticeable to some players and caused them to want to do something in order to use a “ modern” mouthpiece on an older design.

 

[kymarto]

This is how I know the missing length:
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?377980-Any-Cigar-Cutter-owners

I'd say that the missing length of the neck naturally mess with intonation.
So adding 1/2" of straight tube will correct the intonation to it's original state.
Just think of the toneholes - removing metal from the tonehole will change intonation slightly if it's overdone. You wouldnt want to remove as much as 1/20" from a tonehole. That would mess things up. Removing 1/2" from the neck is worse.
Maybe I missinterpreted your statement?
Best regards

Actually there will be no big difference from a truncated neck, because the missing length will be made up by the throat of the mpc. The real problem is if you cannot tune without the mpc falling off the neck. The small change in diameter between the throat and the neck should not make a big difference, although obviously it will make some small difference to the partials of the top tones, more than anything else.

 

[milandro]

I too think that the intonation influence will be relative , unless one extends the neck to where it was and then uses a large barrel or pickle mouthpiece. (click to expand) this is a Riffault which is as big as a Bass mouthpiece ( and some use it for that too)

 

[clarnibass]

The real problem is if you cannot tune without the mpc falling off the neck.

It might be too unstable (physically) even if it's not anywhere near falling off.

 

[LiAm84]

This is how I know the missing length:
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?377980-Any-Cigar-Cutter-owners

I'd say that the missing length of the neck naturally mess with intonation.

Have you play tested and checked the intonation of the instrument with the neck in it's current state?
I have a Radio Improved which appears to have had the neck shortened but the instrument plays perfectly in tune. I think the previous owner actually had the neck worked on by SMG-Custom (www.smg-custom.com/) so I wondered if shortening the neck was part of their optimising process.

 

[Bkenes]

Have you play tested and checked the intonation of the instrument with the neck in it's current state?
I have a Radio Improved which appears to have had the neck shortened but the instrument plays perfectly in tune. I think the previous owner actually had the neck worked on by SMG-Custom (www.smg-custom.com/) so I wondered if shortening the neck was part of their optimising process.

No, it came to me without any pads.
So I don't know about that.
I have never seen any reason to shorten any early selmer necks before. I've had anything in my shop - from the first selmer modele 22 to their current models. No early selmer has seemed to benefit from a cut off neck...
Therefor I just assume it's good to restore the neck to it's original condition.

 

[LiAm84]

No, it came to me without any pads.
So I don't know about that.
I have never seen any reason to shorten any early selmer necks before. I've had anything in my shop - from the first selmer modele 22 to their current models. No early selmer has seemed to benefit from a cut off neck...
Therefor I just assume it's good to restore the neck to it's original condition.

It may well be an unnecessary job if you don't know it is affecting the intonation. I would have thought adding material to the neck would be a last resort.

 

[milandro]

I too think that you should first make the horn playable and try it, as is, with a modern range of mouthpieces, then decide whether to lengthen the neck.

You may very well find that it plays just fine as is

As said before when these horns were made the original mouthpieces were as the Riffault above, when people starte using the much slimmer ( and longer) design of mouthpieces which came later on some people may have chosen to shorten the neck to improve intonation.

... I see your baritone's neck hasn't got the bands or rings that mine has, making it sure that my neck was , at some stage made longer

 

[Bkenes]

I too think that you should first make the horn playable and try it, as is, with a modern range of mouthpieces, then decide whether to lengthen the neck.

You may very well find that it plays just fine as is

As said before when these horns were made the original mouthpieces were as the Riffault above, when people starte using the much slimmer ( and longer) design of mouthpieces which came later on some people may have chosen to shorten the neck to improve intonation.

I'm always trying to repair each horn in a way that preserve the originality of it. I don't like the idea of repairing a great sax and leave a neck that is too short. I see no reason to not repair it. There is nothing to lose but time and a small piece of brass. Maybe I'm being stupied now but if so be it.

 

[milandro]

yes, but at this stage you have no idea whether the previous things was a good fix and you , so, fixing the entire horns first and THEN tests (as an intermediate stage of the works) doesn’t imply that you are done without adding the tube, it just gives you more information at that point of the overhaul.

You can THEN decide, with your customer, what to do.

As for tampering with necks.

One day I was in a shop and was playing a King silversonic USA alto( one of the latest incarnation around 800xxx) it wouldn’t play in tune, don’t worry said the shop keeper , I can’t play in tune either, we are plannig to cut the neck.

Apparently they did, and it didn’t work , so they soldered it back again (I’ve heard later)

 

[Bkenes]

Yes, sorry - of course I will test play it before. I just assume that I will come to the same conclusion as I am now and make the extension. But hey, I may be wrong.
I will test play, then soft solder the extension, test play again and see if the intonation was best with or without the extension. Then I will hard solder the extension if the neck plays the same or better with the original length.

 

[milandro]

I think that is the logical thing to do, make sure you use a range of modern and old mouthpieces, to me, this is the key of the “ problem” that they were trying to “ solve"

 

[swperry1]

Adding metal rings to slowly stretch your neck is cool, but when you cut them off your atrophied musculature will no longer be able to support the weight of your head and you’ll suffocate. I learned that from Nat Geo.