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This is one of the so many “ floating in mid air" things which come (and hopefully go), every so often in this NEW AGE of ours.

Indeed we have had a Dutch émigré here who has written several panegyrics on the many merits of A=432Hz.

I have expresses my feelings about this whole shebang being a pile of taurus waste whether you look at it fro the exoteric side or the pseudo-logic one.

But all this is religion-like stuff.

There are people out there who live literally by the thing that “ magic” is in the air. We had members of the Dutch Royal family ( which says a lot about hereditary rights to royalty or anything really) who believed in talking to de dead through mediums and embracing trees.

Some people made a career in taking advantage of these feelings.

I just believe firmly that it is nonsense an nothing else than that.
 

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I stretch those darn piano octaves 5 days a week.
Yes, based but there are other issues...

Perhaps that is to tune with pianos, where the octaves are almost always tuned stretched. That is because the second overtone of any note is uncomfortably sharp, and clashes with the string which has that as its fundamental. The sharpness is because of the unavoidable stiffness of the string where it crosses the bridges.

I would have thought that violin tuning depended on where one chose to put one's finger. The strings are not stiff and very tight like piano strings are.
 

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Indeed we have had a Dutch émigré here who has written several panegyrics on the many merits of A=432Hz.
I guess I don't have to ask if you were referring to me?

First, don't worry, I'm not going to start this whole debate all over again, It's not worth my time do converse with people that are not interested in the topic anyway.

Secondly, does it matter where I'm from and where I live now? What are you trying to insinuate with that particular bit of information? I don't see the relevance to this topic or anyone's questions about it? It seems you're "playing on the man" again, instead of the ball. Why? I don't know what your problem is Milandro ... apparently you have created some bizarre picture of me in your mind and seem to be unable or perhaps unwilling to adjust it.

It's also obvious to me that you have not taken the time - not in the past nor recently - to really read what I have written on my blog about this subject. The choice of the word "panegyrics" would otherwise be badly chosen the least. And what "many merits" are you talking about? In the old topic about this subject I have mostly tried to explain about and clear-up some of the many misconceptions, misunderstandings and myths concerning this topic.

If you would have/had actually taken your time to honestly check what I have been writing and say for a long time, then you would have known I have always been critical about this subject, I debunked various myths and fairy tales concerning this subject and have placed a lot of info in a proper perspective.

It is fact that many of the stories you read online about this subject is a pile of crap, something that has always bothered me too, but that I am not responsible for. From ridiculous myths as the Goebbels 440Hz pitch (I wrote a short article about that as well) to various misunderstandings and misinterpretations of both historical, music theoretical and sound-related nature ...

I'm probably not that far off to say you haven't even read most of it either.

Yes, there is a lot of BS about this subject floating around on the internet, but where there's smoke there's fire. I Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, unlike you.

Now, I still find lower pitches more pleasing for the ears, no matter if that's 435Hz (the "Diapason Normal" that use to be the official French pitch in the past - there were even saxophones build for it) or 432Hz, or even lower: 430.5Hz (C4=256Hz - the "Scientific Pitch"). About all of that I have written as well.

This all does not mean I say or have ever said that 432Hz was "better" or more "natural" or what ever. Nor did I ever said people had to throw their saxophones in the trash and replace or something. Nor did I say people should perform in 432 and had to stop playing in 440Hz.

Just like the rest of the sax players on this forum I perform in 440Hz, that's what my horns were build for. And I have no intention to trash my horns, they are like family. Would I mind adding another horn to the family, perhaps in a different pitch, like 435 or 432? No, I would not mind.

Anyway ... writing you is rather useless I fear, I probably have wasted my time with that. I would prefer though that you do not make insinuations concerning my person, or for that matter ever mention me or hint in my direction. Thank you, very much appreciated.

For people that are really interested in this matter and are not as narrow/close-minded as some here on this forum, do check my blog, there are a lot of articles on it concerning this topic, weeding out fact from fiction and placing things in a larger perspective. And feel free to send me a message with questions if you have.
 

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Now, I still find lower pitches more pleasing for the ears, no matter if that's 435Hz (the "Diapason Normal" that use to be the official French pitch in the past - there were even saxophones build for it) or 432Hz, or even lower: 430.5Hz (C4=256Hz - the "Scientific Pitch"). About all of that I have written as well.
I would agree that some songs sound better when lowered in pitch digitally. But that's true even lowering them by a full semitone. That effect doesn't stop when you pass the 432/440 ratio (or however you properly call it). So the simple fact that pitching something down can sound pleasing to some people does not point to 432 meaning anything.
 

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Here's what A=432 sounds like ....


This was recorded at A=432, which was as easy as tuning the guitars to it. The first time I tried this, the guitar sounded flat, but my ear quickly adjusted and it soon sounded normal (thankfully, I don't have perfect pitch). It's great singing at A=432, which takes some stress off the vocal chords, at least in my experience. As far as the esoteric considerations, I have no comment. I'm not getting into any of those arguments ... It is what it is, a different tuning standard, that produces a whole series of pitches that we normally don't ever hear. No big deal. I wouldn't buy an A=432 pitched sax because you'd have a hard time finding anyone you could play in tune with. The recording I made may not sound in tune to you but I guarantee that it is perfectly in tune (with A=432).

Turtle
 

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I would suggest that a Bb soprano sax is actually a C soprano sax pitched at A=392, and it is true that I find the sound more pleasing than the C sop pitched at A=440 :)
 

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I would agree that some songs sound better when lowered in pitch digitally. But that's true even lowering them by a full semitone. That effect doesn't stop when you pass the 432/440 ratio (or however you properly call it). So the simple fact that pitching something down can sound pleasing to some people does not point to 432 meaning anything.
True, very true. And I have never said so by the way.

There are many recordings that do not sound better, sometimes even worse when they are "pitched down". With the right approach, the right tools and the required knowledge it does work for some pieces but doesn't for others. It depends in my opinion also very much on the style of music. Music that required "punch" or "an edge" or even "aggression" in it's sound should NOT be pitched down for example. Using a lower pitch is generally most effective for music with acoustic instruments, in particular if it's performed already in a lower pitch.

Anyway ...

Any of this all does indeed not point to 432 meaning anything. There are a lot of fairy tales and myths going around about mystic and magical effects and stuff. That's all a bunch of gobbeldygook, mostly uttered by people that have no or hardly any knowledge about sounds, music and music history. It is sad that such people keep "spinning" such stories ... you can't blame serious musicians, composers and engineers from ignoring the whole thing when that kind of mumbo jumbo is floating around. ;)
 

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What I find interesting about A=432 is that, when you play in this tuning standard, you are using frequencies that are, generally speaking, never heard in Western music. They are completely different, all up and down all the different scales and keys, and they create a whole different vibe for music. We've all grown up listening to music that is based on A=440, these other pitches never get heard (unless the band is really, really flat ..... the difference is about 1/3 of a half step). For me, it's a whole different vibe, even more different than the different keys are from each other in 440.

The A=432 tuning standard is widely available to some instruments (strings, vocals, electronic keyboards, guitars, bass, drums, etc.) and completely unavailable to others (woodwinds and brass), making it one big fat MOOT subject. It ain't gonna happen with saxes, so from that perspective it's largely just a curiosity. It can be an interesting subject, but not so much in a room filled with closed minds.


Turtle
 

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What I find interesting about A=432 is that, when you play in this tuning standard, you are using frequencies that are, generally speaking, never heard in Western music. They are completely different, all up and down all the different scales and keys, and they create a whole different vibe for music. We've all grown up listening to music that is based on A=440, these other pitches never get heard (unless the band is really, really flat ..... the difference is about 1/3 of a half step). For me, it's a whole different vibe, even more different than the different keys are from each other in 440.

The A=432 tuning standard is widely available to some instruments (strings, vocals, electronic keyboards, guitars, bass, drums, etc.) and completely unavailable to others (woodwinds and brass), making it one big fat MOOT subject. It ain't gonna happen with saxes, so from that perspective it's largely just a curiosity. It can be an interesting subject, but not so much in a room filled with closed minds.

Turtle
Yes, that's (more or less) how I see it. It sounds and feels a bit different, and if you like it or not depends very much on how you experience music and sound.

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For saxophone players there are a couple of options I think, some expensive, others less expensive. The most expensive option is to have a sax build for 432Hz. Borgani did so once. This though is for most people not an option, specially because the chance you're playing music tuned to 432Hz is still relatively small. And most brands would not be willing to do so anyway.

A member of this forum suggested using a "HP" High Pitch instrument. High Pitch instruments are generally set to A4=456Hz. 456Hz is one semitone (101 cents to be precise) above 432Hz. A High Pitch sax should thus have no intonation issues, you just have to transpose your sheets. High Pitch instruments are not easy to find in Europe though. I think only in the US, Australia and Canada? HP saxes have been put on the market? Here in Europe I haven't seen one myself yet. This is though something I have been thinking about, if I can find one for a really good (low) price.

Another option is to use a vintage saxophone that was originally build for the French market before WW2. Untill WW2 the "Diapason Normal" (A4=435Hz) was still used in France. The difference between 435 and 432 should be possible to correct with pulling the mouthpiece out a bit more and some small corrections with the embouchure. It is hard to find any such instruments though. And - specially those predating WW1 - do not have very good mechanics.

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It is an interesting subject for sure, that's why I blogged about it a lot, to share findings, thoughts and ideas. I have noticed over the past 5 or more years that I have been interested in this topic that it's hard to find a room with open-minded people. For this particular topic this forum isn't one of those rooms. You are lucky if you're only "laughed at", but before you know it you'll be labeled and ridiculed if not worse. ;)
 

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But, perhaps it would be better if I stop writing about this subject here, I'm pretty sure I'm like a "red flag" to some narrow-minded "Bulls" on this forum. ;) Hihihi
 

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...it's hard to find a room with open-minded people. For this particular topic this forum isn't one of those rooms.;)
Obviously, it's not. Some posters here are so quick to debunk something out of the box that they don't even know what they're debunking. This discussion, in this forum, is a complete waste of energy. :dontknow:

Back to the shed!

Turtle
 

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The harmonic content a pitch on a string instrument is slightly altered when there is less string tension, That's why some 'original' recordings of Mozart symphonies have a 'better' sound when the strings are tuned to 430 or 432. It's further altered by using gut strings.
 

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Any pitch standard, now or in history, is just an arbitrary number. There is nothing mystical or artistically better about one or the other. A=440 has been a boon to instrument manufacturers who no longer have to worry that their product won't work in another country. Musicians can also feel secure that they can travel to a far away city and play with an orchestra without buying a new oboe, vibraphone or tuba.

The main problem with A=440 is that the power mains in the USA are using 60 cycles which often creates disonnance with bass instruments playing the note 'B' (or other notes). However, this is not the fault of the committee that chose 440. Instead, it was ignorance by the electrical engineers.
 

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Historically A has ranged from around 415 to 457 Hz. If you are interested in pitches no modern Western ears have heard take any music you'd like, import it into Audacity, and change the pitch to whatever your ear or heart desires. I'd venture to say that no lights will light inside your head when the pitch of A slips from 433 down to 432 Hz...
 

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What I find interesting about A=432 is that, when you play in this tuning standard, you are using frequencies that are, generally speaking, never heard in Western music.
Except for when the pitch is changed in post production. I spend a lot of my playing time trying to play vocal melodies to songs on youtube, and every so often I come across one that is definitely not tuned to 440.
 

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Except for when the pitch is changed in post production. I spend a lot of my playing time trying to play vocal melodies to songs on youtube, and every so often I come across one that is definitely not tuned to 440.
I'm sure I hear many of those pitches quite often when working with beginning students...also on Youtube, playing along to different pop tunes (especially hip-hop) that uses lots of samples, presumably because the samples have to be sped up/slowed down to fit together comfortably.

On thing I could never find an answer to, so please feel free to enlighten me, is why 432? What about 432 is supposed to be special, as opposed to say 420? (Living in Oregon I hear all about how great 420 is...sorry, stupid joke...) But for real, the thing that seems weird to me is if something sounds too high or tense why not just take it down a bit into another key? It's never added up to me that tuning a third of a semitone lower would matter. If a third of a semitone sounds better, what about 3 thirds?
 

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Because the proposers of this " theory" (there are also such " theorists " among the members here think this has special properties , magical, healing, physical and so forth) believe in its meta-ultra-super- natural qualities.

Of course they don't understand that a frequency only makes sense if you indicate the time unit and that a second ( 1") is not a measure set in stone or heaven too as 440Hz (per second) is.

So NOTHING pre dates mankind and nothing pre-dates the standardization of time (or anything else).


Mind the BS galore! this first video has plenty!:faceinpalm:

this is more balanced an explanation ( and the good advise to do it, if you want, so you won't mix your music with ours)


and if you thought you knew what a second is...

 

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420 was already popular for the 420 law on cannabis...
They decided to go for "432" because there was nothing associated to that number.

They even infected Wikipedia with this ****.
 
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