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funny you should say so because aside fro the split bell arrangement the pic from your site sho a sax that is very similar to the one OP posted.....
 

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I still think its a Keilwerth stencil, because keilwerth were notorious for copying the conn basic design. I have only seen that high E trill key or whatever its called on Keilwerth and Hohner saxes (Richard Keilwerth). Also that right hand pinky cluster is very Keilwerth. Also the forked Eb that was not usually found on French horns is often seen on the Keilwerth horns.

This is a Keilwerth, and look at the key setup and shape of the right hand pinky keys compared to the OP pics.

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It will be nice to find out what it turns out to be.
 

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I still think its a Keilwerth stencil, because keilwerth were notorious for copying the conn basic design. I have only seen that high E trill key or whatever its called on Keilwerth and Hohner saxes (Richard Keilwerth). Also that right hand pinky cluster is very Keilwerth. Also the forked Eb that was not usually found on French horns is often seen on the Keilwerth horns.

This is a Keilwerth, and look at the key setup and shape of the right hand pinky keys compared to the OP pics.

View attachment 26866

It will be nice to find out what it turns out to be.
I have not seen an old keilwerth stencil with that kind of posts..
 

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The link for that picture and others of that horn is below....The horn actually has Keilwerth engraved on the bell along with some other words in German that I cant read.

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2001
 

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The link for that picture and others of that horn is below....The horn actually has Keilwerth engraved on the bell along with some other words in German that I cant read.

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2001
It just says: Graslitz C.S.R.

Graslitz was the city in the Czech/Slovak Republic (C.S.R.) where the J. Keilwerth was located. Graslitz was the musical hub where many others such as Kohlert, were based.

Many of the Germans left Graslitz after WWII and set up shop back in Germany. Some ended up in Neuheim (such as J. Keilwerth). Those that didn't flee the country, ended up being swallowed up by the cooperative that is Amati. (A very abridged version of the history, with many, many details left out.)
 

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I have only seen that high E trill key or whatever its called on Keilwerth and Hohner saxes (Richard Keilwerth).

It will be nice to find out what it turns out to be.
Actually, Hohner Presidents were built by the other brother, Max Keilwerth.

Lots of companies put the high D/D# trill key on their horns. Hammerschmidt, Oscar Adler, Gebr眉der M枚nnig Markneukirchen, and on and on it goes. I don't have time to check now how many other non-German brands had this trill key, but yes, the Germans did seem to love this key!

I totally agree with you Raphyel, it will be nice to figure out what this really is. I hope we can do so!
 

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Yeah I get the names confused..there was Max Richard and Julius, and all of them had Keilwerth horns or stencils. I actually had a very nice Hohner president before that was silver plated....It was extremely well built but just didn't have that aggressive sound that my 10m has.
 

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First: this is very fine old sax, but perhaps not that old since the left hand pinky spatulla is reminiscent of 50's to 60's saxes. It seems to have a G trill key and a high F# key that is an extension of the right hand index finger exactly as my JK Toneking of early 60s. Oth it has decorated bell elbow to body rings very similar to the Selmer saxes. Very puzzling.
Nice catch!
Could this be a pre Model 22 Selmer stencil?
 

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Another puzzler is the raised right hand palm key which I first saw on the Conn transitional late chu models I think conn was first to use that design and Keilwerth adopted that style of key from the Conn design fairly early) I would place this horn probably around 1930-1932 based on that alone. As far as I know that was started by Conn, and All Selmers had a straight key there even through the Mark Vis and maybe VIIs. So it's probably not a Selmer stencil, but who knows.

Here is that raised right hand palm key on a split bell model Keilwerth...All of the French horns I can think of had a straight key there. Here it is on a 1934 Keilwerth tenor.

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I finally found the photos of the Rene Guenot soprano, aren麓t very good ones, specially the one of the pinky cluster (too small), but in the other one you can see how the Rene Guenot soprano share exactly the same forged palm key design with this mistery horn. http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af204/lepoisondargent/reneguenot1.jpg
The pinky cluster also has the same design, but it麓s difficult to see because of the photo size. http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af204/lepoisondargent/reneguenot.jpg
The Rene Guenot soprano had the words "Modele 1928" engraved on it, soldered tone holes and a thumb ring like the Conn sopranos.
Sadly I don麓t have more info, but I think this alto is a Rene Guenot circa 1935 (+/- 5 years).
 

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I finally found the photos of the Rene Guenot soprano, aren麓t very good ones, specially the one of the pinky cluster (too small), but in the other one you can see how the Rene Guenot soprano share exactly the same forged palm key design with this mistery horn. http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af204/lepoisondargent/reneguenot1.jpg
The pinky cluster also has the same design, but it麓s difficult to see because of the photo size. http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af204/lepoisondargent/reneguenot.jpg
The Rene Guenot soprano had the words "Modele 1928" engraved on it, soldered tone holes and a thumb ring like the Conn sopranos.
Sadly I don麓t have more info, but I think this alto is a Rene Guenot circa 1935 (+/- 5 years).
Yep, Rene Guenot... check this one out
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?50496-RENE-GUENOT-PARIS

Even more similar here:
http://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments_de_musique/173227462.htm
 

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in my opinion, nothing like a German or Bohemian horn and everything looks very French to me (look at the key guards!)
That was the first thought which jumped into my head, too...

I am not seeing Keilwerth because they didn't have a bell-flair like this Mystery Horn. Also, Keilwerths didn't have a swooping bellbrace like that with such an interesting oval escutcheon (aka 'foot'). I have a pair of Max Keilwerth horns, old ones, opposite-bellkey ones, plated. They do not have the attributes of this horn, in either the key touches, general bell shape, bell brace, of keyguard design...

I would hazard to say it is pre-'40's really. Damn, it's a good stumper, though.....but I gotta give the thumbs-up to XAX & ElectricFigue here, they called it: Guenot.

Not so much the first thread Xax linked to, but the second link, the ad...look at the pic of the left side of the Guenot horn and compare it to the OP's pic of the left side. Look at the bellkey guard, and the swooping wire guard on the Eb key...and the bell brace.

Rene Guenot. Almost the same damn horn as the OP's....looked tres French, oui ????

Interesting, because I have a Rene Guinot (it really is an "i" not an "e") and it doesn't particularly look like this horn.
 

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That was the first thought which jumped into my head, too...

I am not seeing Keilwerth because they didn't have a bell-flair like this Mystery Horn. Also, Keilwerths didn't have a swooping bellbrace like that with such an interesting oval escutcheon (aka 'foot'). I have a pair of Max Keilwerth horns, old ones, opposite-bellkey ones, plated. They do not have the attributes of this horn, in either the key touches, general bell shape, bell brace, of keyguard design...

I would hazard to say it is pre-'40's really. Damn, it's a good stumper, though.....but I gotta give the thumbs-up to XAX & ElectricFigue here, they called it: Guenot.

Not so much the first thread Xax linked to, but the second link, the ad...look at the pic of the left side of the Guenot horn and compare it to the OP's pic of the left side. Look at the bellkey guard, and the swooping wire guard on the Eb key...and the bell brace.

Rene Guenot. Almost the same damn horn as the OP's....looked tres French, oui ????

Interesting, because I have a Rene Guinot (it really is an "i" not an "e") and it doesn't particularly look like this horn.
I think they solved the mystery!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Thanks to all of you ! It's defenitly a Rene Guenot.
I will now give it to my preferred saxdoc and let him make it as new. It's really a players horn. And for my repadding practice I am going to look for another cheap sax !
 

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Thanks to all of you ! It's defenitly a Rene Guenot.
I will now give it to my preferred saxdoc and let him make it as new. It's really a players horn. And for my repadding practice I am going to look for another cheap sax !
Found this YouTube of a Rene Guenot alto in action.
 

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I would say with 99,9 % confidence that its a french produced horn by A. Douche et Cie under the artistic name of this sax brands creator: Rene Guinot and its a Super Artist model of witch I have one my self :) Mine is labeled Dore and it was made for SML as a production copy for their first own model: La Super Strama witch..... was manifactured by..... yes you guesed it: A. Douchet et Cie (Rene Guinot)

This is not somthing i made up - this is veriable fact that was written inside the Bb cup as an engraving. It even has the date 1934 engraved.
 

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It is a stencil from Ren茅 Gu茅not. It is a copy from the star model of this maker: the Super Serie 1934. It is a professionnal model.
According the serial number, the year of issue is around 1936 +/- 1 year.
 
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