[jbtsax]

I just finished a "professional" play condition on a Selmer Super Action 80 alto the other day and play tested it to find that it played ok but still had an uncomfortable resistance especially in the lower register.

Out came the feeler gauge, leak light in the darkened room, reed change, checking of spring closed keys etc. and not a clue jumped out as to why the sax played stuffy. The neck cork was just a little worn, so I decided it wouldn't hurt to put on a new one. When I gave the old cork a turn with the pliers to break it off, it rotated easily on the neck. This led me to believe the air leak was underneath the neck cork which hadn't been glued properly. After installing a new neck cork, the sax played beautifully confirming my diagnosis.

This was the first time I had encountered this problem in over hundreds of saxes I have worked on. Has anyone else had a similar experience with a mysterious "hidden" leak?

John

 

[martysax]

Sorry, wrong door. I just had my third cup of coffee.

Where's the bathroom?

 

[Bill Mecca]

I used to work with a guy who's last name was Leake (silent e at the end) he and his brother had a plumbing business, you can just imagine the commercials...

sorry for the diversion but Marty brought up some memories...

To stay OT, I would have never suspected a leak under the cork... nice find!

 

[Henry D]

Taking a marginally higher road...... years ago I acquired a padless Buescher C melody. Padless via age vice design. Along with the lack of pads were assorted dings- one of these was the pivot yoke/rod area for the octave key on the neck which had been pushed in. I pushed it out to pretty presentable cosmetic standards, fixed the other dents, repadded and proceeded to conclude that Buescher C-melodies were just plain stuffy. Multiple mouthpieces, leak lighting ad infinitum, ETC. Played but was just unpleasant. Put it in the closet and wrote it off.

A year and a half later while tinkering on a Conn C-melody which played quite well I decided to see what would happen if I tried the Buescher "tenor style" neck on the "alto style" necked Conn. In the course of realizing that I sure wasn't going to make the Buescher neck fit the Conn for any reason beyond creating a funky light fixture I discovered that the metal under the pivot plate on the Buescher neck had a miniscule tear where it had been pushed up. The tear was right in the middle, hidden by the plate which was soldered firmly at both ends but with a tiny space in the center back area. I only came across it because I had just acquired a small arms borescope tool from military surplus and was dying to try it out. (miserable at making it around bends and so pretty good for clarinets, brass valves/ leadpipes, and stacks but clearly less than ideal for necks). Fixed the tear by removing plate, touching up, and resoldering plate and the Buescher played just beautifully.

Ay carumba. I suppose if something strikes you as, "Surely this can't be how it was designed to sound." you're probably right. Unless its a Holton
Wiedoeft.....

 

[littlemanbighorn]

That's definitely a regrettable title for this thread.

 

[jbtsax]

That's definitely a regrettable title for this thread.

Sorry, I must be spending too much time with "He Who Must Not Be Named Who Advertises A Good Place To Take A Leak". It's rubbing off on me.

 

[saxphil]

Nice find.I had the neck expanded for a tighter fit in the tenon-low and behold fabulous low end.Is this common?

 

[jbtsax]

Nice find.I had the neck expanded for a tighter fit in the tenon-low and behold fabulous low end.Is this common?

Shhh....this is the best kept secret in sax repair.

John

 

[clarnibass]

John, did it also look like there was no glue under the cork? I've seen a few of those on clarient tenons - corks that just spin on the tenon with no glue behind them. The glue failed after just a few years! They weren't original so someone must have used not enough of the wrong glue or something (but where did all the glue go???).

 

[hansmartini]

I am suspicious that they are 'self stick'. The ones I have run into have very little (no) residue on the neck. See it a lot lately.
Hans

 

[JerryJamz2]

John, did it also look like there was no glue under the cork? I've seen a few of those on clarient tenons - corks that just spin on the tenon with no glue behind them. The glue failed after just a few years! They weren't original so someone must have used not enough of the wrong glue or something (but where did all the glue go???).

Nitai,

This is a result of using generic animal-fat based cork grease which attacks the contact cement underneath after a period of time when the grease has been absorbed into and through the pores, and also seeped under the cork from around the edges. The best cork grease I have found is either Omar's or the Kraus synthetic cork grease. It's not cheap, but the problem is that all manufacturers and music stores sell and supply the garbage animal-fat based cork grease because of tradition, as up until recently all we had was the former poor-quality stuff. And by selling generic cork grease means eventually tenons will loosen and thus more profit for their repair shop. Until we can get the entire music industry to re-think their approach and stop supplying and selling this crap, this will be a constant and re-occuring problem. Unfortunately, it is what it is.

 

[clarnibass]

Jerry thanks. Actually I forgot to say that several of those with that problem were using regular vaselin. It wasn't even any type of cork grease. I told them it probably causes it. Gave one a spare Doctor cork grease I happened to have. I also recommended the Doctor (Omar's) cork grease to all of them but since they'll have to order it from USA I doubt they'll make the effort. Plus it is not so cheap. I guess I could buy a bunch of them and sell them to people but then I'll have to something that is the last thing I want to do (i.e. explain to people why they should buy something from me) and no matter how correct and honest I am (I would even sell it at cost + shipping expenses, with no profit) it still requires a sales person attitude.....

P.S. I like the Doctor's natural cork grease more than his synthetic.

 

[Fred]

I'm a huge fan of Doctor's Products (Omar Henderson's company) as mentioned above. His is truly a unique company - not merely a reseller of products but a formulator of truly superb products. I wouldn't buy oil or cork grease anywhere else, and there are a lot of other great things on his site as well - including his amazing Forte clarinet!

http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_listCategories.asp

 

[retread]

Yes, everything I've tried from the good Doctor is exceptional.

 

[shmuelyosef]

Nitai,

This is a result of using generic animal-fat based cork grease which attacks the contact cement underneath after a period of time when the grease has been absorbed into and through the pores, and also seeped under the cork from around the edges. The best cork grease I have found is either Omar's or the Kraus synthetic cork grease. It's not cheap, but the problem is that all manufacturers and music stores sell and supply the garbage animal-fat based cork grease because of tradition, as up until recently all we had was the former poor-quality stuff. And by selling generic cork grease means eventually tenons will loosen and thus more profit for their repair shop. Until we can get the entire music industry to re-think their approach and stop supplying and selling this crap, this will be a constant and re-occuring problem. Unfortunately, it is what it is.

I would second this and recommend the Doctors Products grease as well. I buy the small sticks and give them to folks in conjunction with neck cork installs.

 

[Jazz Is All]

Nice find.I had the neck expanded for a tighter fit in the tenon-low and behold fabulous low end.Is this common?

I had the same problem with my 3 month old Kessler Solist alto and didn't even know it, but it's not so much a secret that the tech couldn't spot it right off the bat. I had thought the extra air support I needed to play the bottom notes was due to using at least a 2.5 reed (with a C* mpc I can't play above D3 otherwise) and that the occasional "motorboating" was just endemic to saxes and solved by dropping a wine cork in the bell. Little did I know that there was a leak at the neck because the diameter at the fitting was too small.

Actually, I took it in to the tech to check for other posible leaks and adjust the action, and then he showed me that even with the neck tenon tightened down fully the neck had play in it and could be rocked back and forth. That was a surprise I hadn't even noticed. He put a plug in it and showed me that it couldn't hold a vacuum when he sucked on the cork. Told me that the major effect it has is on the bottom end, and he would expand the neck to fix it.

Of course he then proceeded to find, as I had begun to suspect, leaks in the A and G pads, too much slop in two places in the octave linkage which was causing a delay induced sporadic squeak when running down across the octave break and a general need to loosen up springs because the action was either too tight or way too tight. All this was actually kind of a relief to hear, because it confirmed that the problems I'd begun having weren't being caused by me. He told me that all new horns, no matter what their make, need an adjustment at three months out and mine was no exception, although some of the problems where clearly due to it not being adjusted properly before delivery.

Frankly, it kind of bothers me that I have to pay a tech because Kessler Music guarantees that their saxes are setup, adjusted and play-tested before shipment and even with their hand-written card stating that, it seems that if this one was it was done very cursorily. The horn is covered by their guarantee, so I could have gotten them to do the work for free, except that I live in Spain and bought the sax online while in the N.Y. and sending it back is not at all feasible. Maybe that's a good reason to buy a horn locally, so you can get all the first year tweaking done at no extra cost. However, the outrageous prices in Europe make shopping in the US the only real alternative for many people. I only hope I won't have to make too many visits back to his shop.

I can't wait until Tuesday to get the horn back and find out what it is like to play a correctly adjusted, non-leaking sax, cause I imagine it's going to make a big difference. Now if only that were enough to make me play like Jackie or Jame.s Spaulding.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

Jerry thanks. Actually I forgot to say that several of those with that problem were using regular vaselin. ....

Vaseline, and vaseline-based cork greases are also fantastic at wrecking the resilience of the cork and releasing the glue.

Another excellent cork grease is Alisyn, from Aerospace Lubricants Incorporated. Totally synthetic, and does not harm cork.

I think Ferrees sells it too.

 

[clarnibass]

Maybe I will try Alisyn too, though I really like the product and service from Omar. Is there a difference between Omar's and Alisyn's synthetic cork grease? As much as I like Omar's natural cork grease, I don't really like his synthetic cork grease. Nothing wrong with it really, but my problems were that I need to use it just as much as the natural cork grease (which is very little anyway) and that is doesn't stay on the cork as much as the natural cork grease when assembling the joints. Is the Alisyin different in any way?

Music Medic also sell Alisyn cork grease I think. They also sell Ultimax. Has anyone tried all the three types of synthetic cork grease (and I know there are more, for example from Kraus). Are there any significant differences between any of them?

Gordon, I remember I suggested to them the vaselin is probably the reason the cork came off. I didn't really have any explanation other than the fact that it happened to several people who use it and Omar Henderson explained it before (and I believe him).

What a coincidence, this person just called me today and asked if I have spare good cork grease to sell to him and his students. I'll probably order a lot from Omar and sell it to them, this way they save a lot on shipping, and Omar's comes in the lipstick tube that everyone here prefers.

 

[JerryJamz2]

fwiw - In our shop we use paraffin in place of cork grease. I learned this trick a few years ago from Chip Owen @ Fox.

www.foxproducts.com

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

"....Is there a difference between Omar's and Alisyn's synthetic cork grease? "

Probably the same basic lubricant, but different filler, &/or tackifier (or whatever you call these things) so they have a totally different texture. Just personal choice... I prefer the Alisyn.

I don't know about Doc's current container, but the Alisyn container is flimsy and the hinge breaks. I definitely don't like it, and have a my own total solution to that for my customers and me, that also brings the price down.

I use Doc's other product for many lubrication purposes, especially adjusting tenons, and would probably like it for tenon corks. Circumstances mean I am sticking with Alisyn for cork grease for the foreseeable future though. BTW in my experience Doc is a great guy to deal with.