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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just got a tenor that has "Martin Elkhart-Ind" in the bell, but that looks almost exactly like a Kohlert Winneden: same key guard on the low B and Bb and on the low Eb and C keys. The LH pinky array has a difference in that the Low Bb touch piece does not have the longish roller that the Kohlert Winneden has, but everything else looks exactly the same.

I have looked at saxpics and themartinstory website and have not been able to see anything like it.

THe serial number is 70XX and in small letters it has "K&C" stamped under it. The age of the horn seems to fit more with the Kohlert Winnie series rather than the Martin student series 2 (which would make it a 1930s horn)

It is a great playing horn but I am confused as to exactly what it is.

Even I just got it and it has not had a repad, it plays with a wonderful dark and woody timbre capable of going toe to toe (and even surpassing) my 1952 Aristocrat III Buescher.

Very happy with this find, but confused.

Did Kohlert supply most of the parts (even the whole horn) to Martin and Martin just etched its name?
It does not seem like a "student" horn. The former owner played in the University of Maryland Varsity Band in 1969.

If any of the SOTW sages can enlighten me on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

If there is no precent for such a horn, I will take some pics and post them.

Thanks
 

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There has been some discussion of so-called "Euro-Martins" on the forums. Some have attributed these horns to Malerne, others have proven otherwise. There is a picture of a Euro-Martin on saxpics.com under the Malerne picture galleries. Does your horn look like this?



The rest of the pictures of this horn can be found here:

http://saxpics.com/the_gallery/Malerne/stencils/76xxx-martin/

[EDIT] I just went back saxpics.com to look at a Kohlert and saw that it looks nothing like the so-called Malerne stencil. I'll back off and let folks with more experience in european stencils chime in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Here are five pictures from the *** is this Martin-Kohlert (Winnenden) tenor I just bought. It is wonderful but I can't place it in any Martin category.

Jorns, it looks nothing like the horn you mention.

As you can see from the pictures (if I am successful in loading them), it has Kohlert (Winnenden) key guards, neck, key touchpieces.

However, it has "Martin Elkhart-Indiana" on the bell. and a Martin Indiana Left pinkie cluster.
And it has.... nicely domed soldered toneholes.

I scratch my head and keep saying "*** is this?" Whatever it is, it is a killer horn that I got very cheap. Musical instrument Brass instrument Lighting Wind instrument Woodwind instrument Automotive tire Sleeve Grey Waist Leather jacket
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Here are more photos on this Martin-Kohlert (Winnie) Tenor:
Product Textile Bicycle handlebar Musical instrument Wind instrument
Musical instrument Guitar accessory Brass instrument Reed instrument Wind instrument
Musical instrument Reed instrument Clarinet family Brass instrument Music

Can any one throw some light on this? Is it a "Euro-Martin"? If so:
(1) Has anyone seen one like it?
(2) If it is a "Euro-Martin", why does it have Martin and Elkart-Indiana on the bell? (outsourcing before it became rampant?)
(3) What year does a 70XX serial number make it? and
(4) What does "K&C" stamped in very small letters under the serial number indicate?

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No one knows about this horn? C'mon SOTWers! Weigh in on this.
If this has been dealt with in a previous thread, send the link. I went through all the posts in The Martin group and nothing...
 

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There have been threads on these before. I collect Martins but have never owned one of the Euro horns. From what I can estimate, when Martin was sold to Leblanc around 1971, the US Martins came to an end (serial numbers in the 317,000+ range) and perhaps Leblanc bought some in Europe to stencil as Martins. I know that by the 1980s, the Martin name was on Yanagisawa horns so I would put these as a transitional Martin. This is not a fact, just what has been figured based on timeline and posts on the internet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi Bruce,
The problem with this hypothesis is that the horn came in a case with a receipt made out in the owner's name and a program from a University of Maryland Varsity Band (the program) from 1969 (in which the owner is listed as playing the tenor sax). Thus it would seem that the horn is from before the Leblanc buy. It also looks like a Kohlert.
Any other possibilities?
Would a Euro Martin have "Martin Elkhart-Ind." stamped on the bell
 

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Yep sure looks Kohlert; the bell brace, the guards and man-in-the-moon neck and even the engraving shout Winnenden. The Pinkie stack is weird though...the C# and B look the same, although the G# being straight not angled and the Bb seems maybe like an abbreviated version of the one on the Lacquer Alto on saxpics. As for the soldered toneholes, dunno?
I think the reason you are not getting any response is maybe nobody cares!
Presumably Martin ordered some Kohlert stencils...probably for "student" or "marching horns"...can't have been too many otherwise they would crop up more.
Lucky for you...good find I reckon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nevillesax,
It is a great sounding horn and that is the reason why I am interested in finding more about it. Surprised by the lack of response from SOTWers. You must be right ... maybe nobody cares.
The truly amazing sound qualities of this horn, and lengthy threads on all sorts of sax minutiae, led me to expect that the tons of more knowledgeable and experience folks on SOTW, would know something about this horn.
Yes I consider it a very lucky find. I appreciate your input on it.
 

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flava, I agree with what Nevillesax said.
You can see some pics of Winnenden tenors on saxpics.

You might like to contact forum member spiderjames, by pm.
He owns several Kohlert tenors.
I believe he plays Kohlert 55s mostly, and he certainly knows Winnendens.
He works on them too.

There are a number of comments by spiderjames in the Kohlert forum of this site, that you may find helpful also.
 

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The man in the moon neck is a dead giveaway for it being a Kohlert.
It appears to have curved soldered on tone hole chimneys,beveled, which the early Winnendens had.
The guards are bang on, Winnenden guards.
The art deco engraving behind the Martin inscription is very Kohlert, as Nevillesax said.
The brass cross piece joining the G# key on top, is totally Kohlert.
 

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Hell yes, it's an old Winnenden, no question. Good eye, Flava. It's not an Indiana pinky cluster, actually. Old Winnendens had those clusters...

Bruce, Winnendens were long, long, long gone by the 70's....they are a 40's horn, so Martin must have done something with them back then (unless it's a forged engraving, which is conceivable as well).
I doubt highly that any factory Winnendens could be acquired at the time of the Martin-LeBlanc fusion....there was a 30-year gap there.

Killer horns, the Winnendens.....

Also, that Martin-Malerne is a strange one. A lot of Malerne-esque horns show up here and there. This one (not yours but the one Jorns mentions and links to) is the hybrid Malerne-Italian horn....body and some keys definitely Malerne, but bellbrace and other keys (pinky table, for example) most definitely Italian. Apparently they did a lot of cross-border breeding back in the day. Sometimes the bodies read France, sometimes Italy, sometimes neither.

Fooook, you learn something new everyday. I never knew Martin associated with European makers....
 

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Jaye, I have one mpc cap engraved 'M Martin France' within a diamond border... It fits alto HR pieces.?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hell yes, it's an old Winnenden, no question. Good eye, Flava. It's not an Indiana pinky cluster, actually. Old Winnendens had those clusters...
?
Jaye,
You are right it is an old Winnenden and the pinky cluster is actually from a Kohlert Winnenden as you suggested. I contacted a SOTWer who has the horn with a serial number immediately after mine and they are exactly alike (except for the Martin engraving on mine). Will post pictures of both in the near future.

The most likely explanation is that some former owner carefully over engraved "Martin- Elkhard-Ind." to increase post WW-II salability of the horn. Bell looks to be original. This Winnendens with thiese serial numbers 701X are considered by some folks to be "transitional". This would explain the soldered domed tone holes and other characteristics that differentiate from earlier and previous horns.

They are great players as you indicated.
 

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Flava, any idea where the original owner purchased the horn? I can't help but wonder if, at some point, Martin entered into agreement with Kohlert to sell 'Martin' horns to an overseas market (Europe) for a period of time?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Flava, any idea where the original owner purchased the horn? I can't help but wonder if, at some point, Martin entered into agreement with Kohlert to sell 'Martin' horns to an overseas market (Europe) for a period of time?
Cymry97,

The "sister" horn was acquired in Germany (with the proper Kohlert Winnenden engraving) and now "lives" in Denmark.

In the case of my horn all I know is that the former owner lived in Bethlehem, PA and had dealings with Kempfer Music "Bethlehem's Largest Musical Instrument Dealer". He was a tenor sax player for the University of Maryland. That is all I know. Maybe Mr. Kempfer (given his apparent German ancestry and probable connections to the home country), imported it from Kohlert. All of this is pure unadulterated speculation.

We need to know more about the economic history and agreements between Kohlert and US producers after WWII. The only "evidence" (very slim) seems to be my horn.

This is why Pete, former owner of sax pics.com, thinks that it may have been engraved/re-engraved with "Martin" just to make it more alluring. There has been a long thread on the woodwind forum ("Not a Martin") discussing this in great length. In any case, it is 99.9% a Kohlert Winnenden (with a Martin engraving).

If anyone has evidence of any kind about commercial agreements between the US-based Martin company and Kohlert, please let me know. The period would be late 1940s to early 1950s.
 
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