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1. Yup!!

2. I saw one picture on eBay of a Revelation engraved sax, but I can't find it anymore. I should probably start saving some screenshots for research files...

I'm not sure if the Revelation and Wiedoeft models exactly became the Collegiate line. There are parallel catalogs for Collegiate and Revelation that do not reference each other, running from 1931 up to at least 1936. In 1932, the literature has a new "Professional" model as the top of the Revelation line (click on 30 thru 39 here for 1932 saxes). This is the first illustrations I found of same side bell keys, and a removable clothing guard. When they go from names to numbers, the 210 (and later 211) C-Melody is still in the lineup through 1935. There are three models of trombones, btw (since you have one of them) in the same 1932 booklet: Professional, Revelation, and Symphony. By '37 they merged the catalogs, but still separate the entries for Collegiate from other Holton brands.

3. Thank you for the working copy of LaPorte's Holton list. The link in most of the threads here is broken. I used the old thread and the SN list at Saxophone.org, which is pretty close to it.

4. No joy on the original pads; it came with tan rivets. There will be some new pads in the next week or two, though. I wanted to wait until early next year and do the historically correct overhaul with reso-less plain white pads, but the current ones have started to disintegrate since I have been playing on them. One split and fell out yesterday while I was working on scales, so I will have to settle for good ASAP, perfect later. I measured the errant pad and emailed MM for some samples.

The pad is kind of odd (maybe? I'm used to fixing clarinets, so maybe this is normal for old sax pads? eh?). There isn't any backing, just a cardboard ring around the outer edge, and a tiny oval sticker "63". The felt is exposed in the middle, and has a small area of lumpy shellac smudged on it. The cup is almost clean where it came off, so there isn't part of the pad or any thing in there.

5. I really like the Perfected mouthpiece. My horn isn't stuffy or dull-sounding at all with it. I'm hoping to get another one as a backup, since the one I've got has some little hairline cracks. Perfecteds have been seen on at least 3 horns on Goodwill this month, plus several on eBay. They were also branded as Harwood, Henton, and others, so if I keep watching, I should be able to get a spare. I saw some other good looking mouthpieces I might like to have, too, that are listed or sold recently (a Chedeville C (?!)). This is a dangerous hobby!
Yup...addictive :)

2) I would love to see that picture. Hope it includes the whole sax.
My comment was more in regards to the use of the name. Not just a name change on a given product. Yes you are correct it that regard.
Sax.org has a great collection of ephemera. I'll have to go back and look again. Most of their catalogs would not open for me until recently.
Thanks for the link & noted information.
Is your next planed purchase a #666 ?

3) you're welcome. That man put a ton of time and research into that list. Trust it for accuracy. Most on the net go off the rails mid '20's.
See post #858 https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?70892-Holton-Saxophone-Serial-number-registry/page43

4) when you shake a haunted sax parts have a tendency of running away. Were you playing "Dust In The Wind"? Old Pads no likey that song!,
Measure the pad thickness. You'll need that information later. #63 I'm guessing is a bin or part number for assembly line stock. Backed with the cardboard doughnut? That's interesting.
Orginal pad it could be.
Do some more research. Not all were white. Seems back in the day conservative use of shellac was common.
See a single stitch one here. Post #2 & 3 https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?352138-Rudy-Wiedoeft-alto-1930-cleaning-pictures
Somewhere on that thread is a picture of my original MP too.

Dangerous hobby! I went to the flea market last week to dump some stuff out of the garage. Have a friend that's a vendor I sold pile to. On the way back to the car I stumbled across the trombone. 50 yards away I could see the emblem on the case. It's Holton Bones were calling me. It's October.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
You found that trombone in the pictures at a flea market? Man, I'm in the wrong line of work!

I used a digital caliper to check the thickness of that pad, and it is very lopsided from use/storage/basement/attic.... 0.124 at the thinnest (non-crease) point, and .196 at the thickest. 0.162 +/- 0.010 most other spots I checked. Even with all that variance it was sealing ok before it escaped.

I guess now I need to look up when rivet pads came into use. It looks like the pads on it now were all put on at the same time as they seem to match in style and color. The 1925 literature doesn't call them out as Pneuma, just as Holton Saxophone pads. Supposedly, they are hard, 2-layer felt pads covered in kid, with a waterproof paper in between. I will have to cut open the pad and see what it's made of. If these are original, I may decide to go with white anyway.
 

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You found that trombone in the pictures at a flea market? Man, I'm in the wrong line of work!

I used a digital caliper to check the thickness of that pad, and it is very lopsided from use/storage/basement/attic.... 0.124 at the thinnest (non-crease) point, and .196 at the thickest. 0.162 +/- 0.010 most other spots I checked. Even with all that variance it was sealing ok before it escaped.

I guess now I need to look up when rivet pads came into use. It looks like the pads on it now were all put on at the same time as they seem to match in style and color. The 1925 literature doesn't call them out as Pneuma, just as Holton Saxophone pads. Supposedly, they are hard, 2-layer felt pads covered in kid, with a waterproof paper in between. I will have to cut open the pad and see what it's made of. If these are original, I may decide to go with white anyway.
Yep, flea market. A real one. Was missing the cleaning rod. Grounds for haggling the flipper. $ you don't want to know.
Did a full clean & service this week. ITS ALIVE !!

Good luck on pad history. Looking forward to your findings. White look really nice.
The 1928 catalog on page 16 notes the Pnuma pads. https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/376
I'm still limited on what will open on that site.
 

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So, what year and model is the 'bone? I think you need a Paul Whiteman model to go with your Rudy Wiedoeft sax. Then a Llewellyn model trumpet to complete the trifecta.
 

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So, what year and model is the 'bone? I think you need a Paul Whiteman model to go with your Rudy Wiedoeft sax. Then a Llewellyn model trumpet to complete the trifecta.
La Portas serial number list is saxophone specific....trying to find one for trombones. Best I can tell it's a 1928 or older just plain revelation. The guy at the flea market was out of specials.
See page 9 https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/376. The detail matches. Especially the tuning slide locking mechanism. Which by the way is stamped "patent applied for". If I really felt like digging up bones....

I knew I was missing something in my collection. Did Holton make a heralding trumpet? Already have a mid '30s Holton flute & metal clarinet. I need a trumpet ! Maybe a euphonium and a sousaphone too. Where is Grumps when you need him the most.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Where is Grumps when you need him the most.
He was headed out to debunk the clairvoyants at their annual Halloween meeting, but it was cancelled due to unforeseen circumstances!!

(Sorry, Grumps, I just couldn't resist!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Yep, flea market. A real one. Was missing the cleaning rod. Grounds for haggling the flipper. $ you don't want to know.
Did a full clean & service this week. ITS ALIVE !!

Good luck on pad history. Looking forward to your findings. White look really nice.
The 1928 catalog on page 16 notes the Pnuma pads. https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/376
I'm still limited on what will open on that site.
At least that 'bone is in good hands now! Congrats on a great horn.

I thought the Pneumas were later than my C, thanks for pinpointing them. I'm kinda busier than expected so far this week, but I will post pics of the pad autopsy soon.
 

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At least that 'bone is in good hands now! Congrats on a great horn.

I thought the Pneumas were later than my C, thanks for pinpointing them. I'm kinda busier than expected so far this week, but I will post pics of the pad autopsy soon.
Thanks, I just didn't plan on learning to play a trombone till last week.;)

Page 4. Take a peek @ 4th block of text here on left. Mention of pad technology but not as punmas.
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/350

Somewhere I have a bag of vintage pads with numbers on back. For / to what ? Will post pic when the Grumpy ghost gives them up.
 

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La Portas serial number list is saxophone specific....trying to find one for trombones. Best I can tell it's a 1928 or older just plain revelation. The guy at the flea market was out of specials.
See page 9 https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/376. The detail matches. Especially the tuning slide locking mechanism. Which by the way is stamped "patent applied for". If I really felt like digging up bones....

I knew I was missing something in my collection. Did Holton make a heralding trumpet? Already have a mid '30s Holton flute & metal clarinet. I need a trumpet ! Maybe a euphonium and a sousaphone too. Where is Grumps when you need him the most.
The standard Holton serial number chart you can find everywhere on the web is accurate for trombones I'm pretty sure.
I don't know if they made a herald trumpet. Wouldn't surprise me though. I know they made bass trumpets - I've got one of those. Be careful if you start getting into the trumpets though - Holton made some pretty cool ones. It's hard to stop at just one. ;)
 

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Note to self: visit flea markets more often. I've only found a handful of instruments at flea markets in the past, mostly flutes and clarinets (and I don't need any more clarinets). I'm not much of a brass player, but I'd force myself to learn if I owned a trombone like that!

The old pads on my Rudy alto had numbers on the back. I know I saved them, it's just a matter of figuring out where I put the bag...
 

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The standard Holton serial number chart you can find everywhere on the web is accurate for trombones I'm pretty sure.
I don't know if they made a herald trumpet. Wouldn't surprise me though. I know they made bass trumpets - I've got one of those. Be careful if you start getting into the trumpets though - Holton made some pretty cool ones. It's hard to stop at just one. ;)
935xx The Sax.org list #s MIA..site has the '28 catalog with it listed.
Adams lists as 1927 https://www.adams-music.com/instrumenten/serienummer/holton.asp?lid=1033
I'm good with +/- 3 years, it's '20 something ;)
I ONLY have TWO trumpets, Olds & EBIC that my father bought new in 1939?
I have to cry foul on your suggesting the Llewellyn model. That really hurt..... I am not looking at a Stratodyne this week I'm not I'm not I'm not!!!!
Holding out for that new thought..... Llewellyn model. Gee thanks!

Note to self: visit flea markets more often. I've only found a handful of instruments at flea markets in the past, mostly flutes and clarinets (and I don't need any more clarinets). I'm not much of a brass player, but I'd force myself to learn if I owned a trombone like that!
Over the years I haven't seen much. Yeah lots of flutes and clarinets. Occasionally a very burned out Overpriced sax. I don't need any more garden stakes for my greenhouse thank you. The once a month trip to the flea market is more about taking a walk. Good place to walk the dog. I miss my dog. Time for another.

Young Squeals has joined the Force.

Note to self: spontaneous stops at yard sales/garage sales require adequate funding to prevent long-term pain and suffering. By the time I went to an ATM and came back it was gone. Two dollars was not acceptable as a deposit. Holton soprano 1927. Still haunts me.
 

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The old pads on my Rudy alto had numbers on the back. I know I saved them, it's just a matter of figuring out where I put the bag...
OK curiosity got the best of me. I had to find that damn brown bag.
It appears these pads are open back with paper rings. Just like our OP said. Brown colored rivets . The numbers are stickers except for the 2 # 63's. Those are from an entirely different lot. I included the picture as I thought they were unique being stitched on the backside. The rest of the set came in the brown bag. A couple with shellac on the backing.
 

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I ONLY have TWO trumpets, Olds & EBIC that my father bought new in 1939?
I have to cry foul on your suggesting the Llewellyn model. That really hurt..... I am not looking at a Stratodyne this week I'm not I'm not I'm not!!!!
What model Olds? Some of those are very good (and valuable) trumpets.
So you weren't the one who bought that Resotone I was watching on ebay then. ;)
 

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Note to self: visit flea markets more often.
Aye, that's where I got my Mark VI bari for $200. Marked as 'big sax, doesn't play.' Just needed minor adjustments, I played it on those pads a decade after that!
 

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What model Olds? Some of those are very good (and valuable) trumpets.
So you weren't the one who bought that Resotone I was watching on ebay then. ;)
Olds is just a plain Ambassador cornet. 1950's Or '60's ? Decent tone.
Resotone no Not I. I avoid FleaBay
Can't say somebody didn't warn me.
https://www.trumpet-history.com/Holton Models.pdf Serial number list places the Bone @ 1927

Note to self: find another'28 Martin handcraft gold plate alto for $100 complete with matching # neck at flea market. Or maybe another $40.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I am not looking at a Stratodyne this week I'm not I'm not I'm not!!!!
Yes, Yes, Yes you are -(hypno eye here)- and reporting directly back to us...

It appears these pads are open back with paper rings. Just like our OP said. Brown colored rivets . The numbers are stickers except for the 2 # 63's. Those are from an entirely different lot. I included the picture as I thought they were unique being stitched on the backside. The rest of the set came in the brown bag. A couple with shellac on the backing.
It appears these pads are open back with paper rings. Just like our OP said. Brown colored rivets . The numbers are stickers except for the 2 # 63's. Those are from an entirely different lot. I included the picture as I thought they were unique being stitched on the backside. The rest of the set came in the brown bag. A couple with shellac on the backing.
Yep, those are exactly like mine. I see you cut one open, and it has the single felt with some wavy-looking reinforcement inside. These must have been a stock repair pad available ? when, I wonder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Keshr,
Good find! that's a nice looking horn. I hope you have many happy years ahead playing it. If you're looking for a NEW mouthpiece for it you can get one from Morgan.

https://www.morganmouthpieces.com/collections/all/c-melody-mouthpieces
Thanks, Reet! I was skeptical after reading about the Holton's keywork before I bought it, but I'm really glad I ignored most of it. It has tone, and really is comfortable for my hands. Before that pad came off, I was amazed at how good it played and sounded. I got clear notes and a few reasonable long tones the first day, and got through a scale cleanly on the second.

I admit the Morgan looks good on paper, but not sure it would beat the original Perfected. I think, though, I'm too new a player to make a realistic judgement on that yet. I would like to try one, anyway!
 
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