[potiphar]

All those arguments about whether finishes, ligatures, precious stones etc affect the sound of the instrument depend on being able to believe what you hear.

Here's a rather graphic demonstration that you can't...

 

[Captain Beeflat]

Yes...interesting. That was posted quite recently.
One hears what one expects to hear.

 

[milandro]

The brain plays all sorts of trick on our perception and in fact no sensorial perception is what is really captured by the sensing organ but only its brain filtered version. This makes also possible that we see things the right way up (while the eye sees them upside-down) and that when ageing the eye changes colour but we keep on more or less thinking that the colours we see are the same.

The Brain is coordinating all sensorial perception and can administrate and change them completely, sometimes knowingly more often unknowingly . Tricking the brain to think that something is happening while something quite different is in fact happening is what illusionists have been using all the time.

In our case most are so convinced that something causes an effect that they superimpose that conscious belief to anything else and get absolutely positive that they hear something that they are not hearing physically but through the filter of their brain.

 

[ericdano]

Ok…….and this has to do what with saxophone?

 

[milandro]

Ok…….and this has to do what with saxophone?

yes, in reference to people hearing what they see ( warm bronze sound, bright silver plate , ............)

 

[MoonMind]

That was a great piece of concise information - thanks for posting it! It also confirms and partly explains what I have found when recording myself and then listening to the results - they're sometimes quite different from the perception I have when I'm behind the horn playing against a flat surface - best of which is the mirror (evenest of surfaces to get sound feedback, but unfortunately also giving you visual feedback...). I really should have closed my eyes, and I will in the future. But of course, the mixture of direct and indirect feedback you get while playing will always cloud your ability to judge your own sound.

Bottom line: For judging your sound, *really* close your eyes (meaning: don't even start bothering for looks, materials, surfaces - whatever). This is important news for recording artists - but I bet *they* know...

But the disturbing thing about this effect is the following: All this also means that the audience will judge part of what they hear by what they see, no matter what we do (or they do, for the matter). So there actually *will* be an effect to the finish and appearance of the sax, mouthpiece, accessories - and player! No way past it...

M.

 

[milandro]

yes, but don't forget that expectation vary meaning that what you, as an insider, might expect from an instrument's sound could be completely different from what an outsider expects.

Besides there are no two common definitions of what exactly warm, bright or any other term used to describe a sound actually mean and on SOTW as everywhere else one could often find contradictory definition for the same implements.

 

[MoonMind]

You're right - there's no way to predict exactly *what* effect appearance will have... Best not to think too much about it. Playing as well as one can is the best thing to do anyway. If gear helps that, all the better. But I wouldn't bet on it (even less so than before I saw this).

M.

 

[milandro]

I think that one can only be amazed at the brain and its properties and quirks. I would highly recommend reading the works (most of which is very accessible indeed) of Oliver Sacks (almost Sax you see ) to see ho incredible the world of the mind is.
He is devoting much of his time nowadays to music and the impact on the brain whether affected by a disease or not.

Also the Library of Congress has dedicated much attention to various aspects of the relationship between music, sound and brain.
(to be found among the, at this point, 899 videos on you tube channel)
[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/LibraryOfCongress#g/u[/video]

 

[Tony5175]

Ligatures do not change tone or anything like that, but they do open up the sound a little. Finishes and stones do nothing but looks.

 

[Buck Laughlin]

Ligatures do not change tone or anything like that, but they do open up the sound a little. Finishes and stones do nothing but looks.

How do you know this to be true? What are you basing it on?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ligatures do not change tone or anything like that, but they do open up the sound a little.

What does "open up the sound" mean?

 

[saxphil]

After watching and listening to the video, a little voice in my head said," Rovners still suck."

 

[Mike1955]

But the disturbing thing about this effect is the following: All this also means that the audience will judge part of what they hear by what they see, no matter what we do (or they do, for the matter). So there actually *will* be an effect to the finish and appearance of the sax, mouthpiece, accessories - and player! No way past it...
M.

It's not only the saxophone's appearance which will affect the individual's judgement. That's too benign in concept.
It's every single bit of information the individual's brain has accessed during the individual's lifetime and how that relates on an extremely personal level.
All this information has been assimilated/filtered and analyzed subconsciously to coincide with the individual's perception of reality and what is reality for them. What comes to the surface (conscious) is what works in the individual's ability to understand their own surroundings according to this information.
It's not disturbing at all. The individual has created an 'effect' for everything they take in optically.
This 'effect' is what makes us individuals.

Trying to get past it is a profound waste of time.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It's not only the saxophone's appearance which will affect the individual's judgement. That's too benign in concept.

Yes, with a musical performance, the audience take many more things into account. Image plays a great role, not just in pop and rock but more and more frequently in jazz and classical.

Also what they know about the player too has a great effect, this is o obvious on the TV talent shows where kids of 7 who give an absolutely staggering performance for their age, yet if you didn't know how young they were they would be just another good but not star quality performer.

 

[rleitch]

Someone should do some studies on the "SOTW effect": that's the phenomenon wherein, no matter what threads initially sound like, they all end up sounding exactly the same.

 

[Mike1955]

Yes, with a musical performance, the audience take many more things into account. Image plays a great role, not just in pop and rock but more and more frequently in jazz and classical.

Also what they know about the player too has a great effect, this is o obvious on the TV talent shows where kids of 7 who give an absolutely staggering performance for their age, yet if you didn't know how young they were they would be just another good but not star quality performer.

Yes, exactly Pete...The variables are simply too vast. But also, it's simply not the just the obvious, horn, performer, stage decor, etc. It's what an individual decides according to trillions of subtleties of information that help make up our reality.

 

[Woosax]

The guy in the video posted by the OP is Larry Rosenblum. He's a friend of mine and a Psychology professor at UC Riverside. He's done a lot of research over the years on (among other things) visual influences on what we hear (both speech and nonspeech). He's got a very accessible book out now called "SEE WHAT I'M SAYING: THE EXTRAORDINARY POWERS OF OUR FIVE SENSES"

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~rosenblu/book/SeeWhatImSayingBook2/SeeWhatImSayingBook/Home.html

 

[Mike1955]

Woosax, I don't know how often you speak to Prof. Rosenblum, but when you do ask him if his work is primarily based in Synesthesia.
Researchers now believe it may yield valuable clues to how the brain is organized and how perception works, which I think is huge!. I read a few times that during brain surgery the patient had to be awake in order for the neurosurgeon and patient to confirm if correct connections were being made. In the course of the surgery the patient, as a result of temporary 'altered' neural connections, could taste color, see sound, etc.

 

[Tony5175]

What does "open up the sound" mean?

Less muffled. I went from a Rovner Dark to a Rico H.