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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

You probably are aware of the ii V I progression. A different approach is the ii flatii I progression. For example in C:

"normal" ii V I: D minor7 - G7 - Cmaj7

"different": ii - flat ii - I: D minor 7 - Dflat minor - Cmaj 7

Do you apply this often in your solo's?
 

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Some would call this a tritone sub for the V (in your example you're using it as a minor7 chord instead of a dominant7).

It works because of the half-step motion coming down from the ii. Also, if you superimpose the Dbminor7 over a G7, you get the #11, 13, b9, and 3- all great color notes over a dominant chord!

To answer your question, YES I apply this often in my solos and compositions!
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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Some would call this a tritone sub for the V (in your example you're using it as a minor7 chord instead of a dominant7).
They might call it a tritone sub, but it isn't really as a tritone sub has to be a dominant. So D min 7 G7 C maj7 becomes D min 7 Db7 C maj7.

The Db7 is a sub for G7 as both chords have F and B, the crucial 3rd and b7 that define the dominant chord for a perfect cadence.

Db maj7 is often used here, again not a tritone sub but an alteration of D min7 (by dropping the root a semitone).

Db min 7 is less useful here IMO as it hasn't got the F



Do you apply this often in your solo's?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, do you mean asking the rhythm section to play a different set of chords, or you are just playing those notes over the actual chords.

If this is the case, I would n't even think of it as changing the progression, it's just a case of the solist playing altered notes over the existing progression.

G7 = G B D F, so playing Db E Ab and Cb (B) is merley using a b5, a b9 and a 13th as extra notes or extensions. I think it's better to think this way as opposed to playing one chord over another as it imples a more melodic and musical way of thinking. So you are "working" the chord progression as opposed to imagining you are playing a different one.
 

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They might call it a tritone sub, but it isn't really as a tritone sub has to be a dominant. So D min 7 G7 C maj7 becomes D min 7 Db7 C maj7.

The Db7 is a sub for G7 as both chords have F and B, the crucial 3rd and b7 that define the dominant chord for a perfect cadence.

Db maj7 is often used here, again not a tritone sub but an alteration of D min7 (by dropping the root a semitone).

Db min 7 is less useful here IMO as it hasn't got the F
I know what an actual tritone sub is ;)

I think in this instance, it's more useful to superimpose the Dbm7 sound over the G7 rather than have the rhythm section players actually play a Dbm7.

I can post up an audio example of this tonight or tomorrow if I get a second.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
They might call it a tritone sub, but it isn't really as a tritone sub has to be a dominant. So D min 7 G7 C maj7 becomes D min 7 Db7 C maj7.

The Db7 is a sub for G7 as both chords have F and B, the crucial 3rd and b7 that define the dominant chord for a perfect cadence.

Db maj7 is often used here, again not a tritone sub but an alteration of D min7 (by dropping the root a semitone).

Db min 7 is less useful here IMO as it hasn't got the F





I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, do you mean asking the rhythm section to play a different set of chords, or you are just playing those notes over the actual chords.

If this is the case, I would n't even think of it as changing the progression, it's just a case of the solist playing altered notes over the existing progression.

G7 = G B D F, so playing Db E Ab and Cb (B) is merley using a b5, a b9 and a 13th as extra notes or extensions. I think it's better to think this way as opposed to playing one chord over another as it imples a more melodic and musical way of thinking. So you are "working" the chord progression as opposed to imagining you are playing a different one.
I mean can you solo(playing the notes) over the chord Db7, while the rhythm section plays the G7 chord(the V of the ii V I progression)?
 

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I mean can you solo(playing the notes) over the chord Db7, while the rhythm section plays the G7 chord(the V of the ii V I progression)?
Yes indeed because if you play that Db7 arpeggio you will have b5, 7th, b9 and 3rd of G7 - so it fits in the context of genres where the alterations are appropriate. But in early jazz, they would not be that appropriate.
 

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I mean can you solo(playing the notes) over the chord Db7, while the rhythm section plays the G7 chord(the V of the ii V I progression)?
Now you are talking about a dominant chord (Db7), which is indeed a tritone sub for G7. In your OP, you mentioned Dbmin7. So I'm a bit confused now (not unusual). In any case, I think you can solo using notes from the tritone sub, as Pete says, because the important chord tones (F and B) are shared in both chords, and the other tones are 'colorful' alterations.

When a chord instrument uses a bII7 in place of V7, it's usually because it smooths out the line in terms of root movement (IImin -bII7 - I). I guess the same principle applies when you sub a minor II chord for the V7, but to my ear the resolution to the I chord isn't quite as strong.
 

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I mean can you solo(playing the notes) over the chord Db7, while the rhythm section plays the G7 chord(the V of the ii V I progression)?
Generally speaking, you can play any note you want to over any chord. The trick is resolving it, unless you intentionally want to sound dissonant.

As Pete indicated, even the b9, which is the most dissonant interval there is can be played over a G7 chord. (Modern) jazz players do it all the time. You could resolve it up a half-step to the ninth or down a half-step to the root. Or even hold it and wait until the I to resolve it (for example, maybe go up a half-step to the 6th of the I chord?) One way to think about music is tension and resolution.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Now you are talking about a dominant chord (Db7), which is indeed a tritone sub for G7. In your OP, you mentioned Dbmin7. So I'm a bit confused now (not unusual). In any case, I think you can solo using notes from the tritone sub, as Pete says, because the important chord tones (F and B) are shared in both chords, and the other tones are 'colorful' alterations.

When a chord instrument uses a bII7 in place of V7, it's usually because it smooths out the line in terms of root movement (IImin -bII7 - I). I guess the same principle applies when you sub a minor II chord for the V7, but to my ear the resolution to the I chord isn't quite as strong.
Sorry, I meant Db7 in my OP
 

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Sorry, I meant Db7 in my OP
OK, much simpler answer. That is a very common tritone substition.

Often a rhythm section might do this in the accompaniment.

However again, when you say use it in a solo, then yagain yesy you can, though just playing chord arpeggios is a good way to practise, but ultimately as I'm suere you are aware you wouldn't want your solos to just be made up of chord arpeggios or merely basic chord notes.
 

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OK, much simpler answer. That is a very common tritone substition.

Often a rhythm section might do this in the accompaniment.

However again, when you say use it in a solo, then yagain yesy you can, though just playing chord arpeggios is a good way to practise, but ultimately as I'm suere you are aware you wouldn't want your solos to just be made up of chord arpeggios or merely basic chord notes.
Right!
Playing solos is playing notes around the melody and/or playing "weird" notes as long as it sounds good/exciting/tensed and often end on I, but it's not necessary. Including the "correct
" rhythm
 

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OK, much simpler answer. That is a very common tritone substition.

Often a rhythm section might do this in the accompaniment.

However again, when you say use it in a solo, then yagain yesy you can, though just playing chord arpeggios is a good way to practise, but ultimately as I'm suere you are aware you wouldn't want your solos to just be made up of chord arpeggios or merely basic chord notes.
So if you are playing a line on the V and thinking/subbing the tritone, what scale or scales would you generally be thinking about based on the tritone root? (Db7 in the key of C for example) Or would you be thinking more "altered scale from the root of the V"?
 

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So if you are playing a line on the V and thinking/subbing the tritone, what scale or scales would you generally be thinking about based on the tritone root? (Db7 in the key of C for example) Or would you be thinking more "altered scale from the root of the V"?
A scale composed of a combination of Db7 and Cmaj7: Db E F G Ab B (C) .
 
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