[thisisdom]

Hi. So I'm thinking about buying a tenor (I play alto at the moment), and I wondering if someone could explain the advantages of having a large tip opening as opposed to a small tip opening.

I hear it's easier to play altisimo notes with a wide opening, but lower notes sound worse? Is that right?

Secondly, does anyone have any suggestions for mouthpieces or reeds if I wanted a Coltrane sort of sound?

Thanks.

 

[Andrewhead]

Large tip openings require more air to make sound than more modest tips. Notes in the altissimo register tend to require more air than notes in the normal range of the horn. I think this is where that logic comes from. Personally I haven't noticed too much of a difference in ease of altissimo when trying the same mouthpiece in different openings. This is just my personal experience. Larger tip openings also tend to cause a darker sound while smaller openings tend to sound more bright and sometimes shrill. It all really depends on your embouchure and style of playing. Larger tips (and larger baffles) make it easier to project (again the more air thing and geometry), but a large baffle could make the sound a bit too edgy for a Coltrane-like sound. An Otto Link STM in a 6* with a Vandoren #3 would probably do the job. Don't rely on what I say as absolute fact though, I'm relatively new to the saxophone world than some of the members here. The Guardala Crescent is also a nice piece. For the Link, I would try a few of them out at a music store to make sure you get a good one, unless you don't mind having it refaced.

 

[thisisdom]

Thanks a lot for the answer! Yeah i'll try them out at a music store and see which one sounds best. Thanks for the mouthpiece suggestions.

I've never been able to get many altissimo notes on my current sax. Maybe I just need to work on it a bit more...

 

[JL]

I hear it's easier to play altisimo notes with a wide opening, but lower notes sound worse? Is that right?.

No, I'd say that couldn't be more wrong. Especially the part about the lower notes. I find the lower notes to be much fuller and more resonant on an open-tip mpc, all other things (like the baffle) being equal. The thing I like most about my RPC 120 (a larger tip than I'd suggest for a first tenor mpc, see below) is the huge, bold low end of the horn. And, in my experience at least, altissimo is no easier on a more open-tip. I'm not speaking of the real extremes here. I think maybe altissimo is more difficult both on a VERY small tip and on a VERY large tip, than on a more middle-of-the-road tip size, but it's really dependent on what you get used to.

Best advice I'd give to a new tenor player is to get a moderate tip opening, something between .095 and .110. And steer clear of really high baffles until you know what sound you want.

 

[Meatballfoot]

In my experience, the tip opening doesn't change the sound necessarily but it greatly changes the feel. A lot of great tenor players play tips of .1'' or greater, and many more have played smaller tips. According to legend, Coltrane played a smaller tip with a hard reed, and I believe this based on the sound that he gets. For me, a larger tip helps subtone, which I view as an important component of the tenor sound, although Coltrane rarely played subtone and he is one of the all time greats of the tenor... A Morgan, Phil-tone, vandoren v16 or java will get you in the right territory. I caution against otto links because of the inconsistency. In terms of tip openings, go with what feels comfortable, and you will be able to get the sound you want. If you are playing a setup that feels awkward, even if it is exactly what your hero played, you are never going to get the sound you are looking for. In this respect, any mouthpiece that is comfortable will get you in the right territory.

 

[Reedscraper]

Frank Wells, the legendary Chicago mp tech who did mp's for Trane and Bird, told me Trane played a metal Link 7. That facing is a nice middle of the road way to go and will allow you to play combo gigs or big bands. I can't vouch for the current new Links as I've not tried them. Maybe others know something about Link's new retro models?

 

[saxpiece]

I hear it's easier to play altisimo notes with a wide opening, but lower notes sound worse? Is that right?

I think you might have heard this in relation to high baffle mouthpieces.

 

[AG]

if you're gonna switch from alto to tenor & you haven't played tenor much before don't get overly ambitious in a tip opening. a large tip opening will be hard to control until you get really use to playing a tenor. my advice is to go with a .90 to 100, maybe even a tad smaller to start (yeah, I know that's kinda small for most tenor players*) & probably the former. most links play well on nearly all tenors. the new slant sig hr tenor piece is a decent one & not too expensive as is the current super tonemaster......it'l run you a bit more. tenor needs a looser more relaxed embrochure than alto & a lot more air, don't make it hard to blow to start with. you can always go to a bigger tip opening later.

* JL could most likely play a tip opening wide enuf to drive a volkswagon thru, and 110 seems small to him, but it won't be to you, but if you think you can handle it then go for it, I just hate to see you buy a piece you can't play well & get discouraged. if you play a large alto tip, say .85 to.90 then maybe it's ok. I play a .76 on alto which is good for the settings I play in & then use about .90 on tenor (concert community band), but I have some bigger tip pieces too when the occasion calls for it, and that's not often anymore. I'm pretty much retired now, don't play too much these days, and I don't have the air I once had to blow a tenor with those monster pieces. if you're not use to playing a tenor it's gonna be a pretty big change to start with, but you'll get use to it. the hardest part is trying not to use an alto embrochure on a tenor.

 

[Sigmund451]

If your after the Coltrane sound...which is by no means easy to achieve, you are looking at Links...Metal Links.
Id strongly suggest a refaced Link in a smaller tip. A 6 or a .090 is plenty for most players most of the time.
Links that are not made well can be really difficult to play well.
When people talk about having to develop "Link Chops" They are too often talking about overcoming a flawed piece.
Links are great fun and can do so much.

 

[bruce bailey]

Being that you are just starting on tenor, I would say to get a lower priced mouthpiece and get used to the tenor sound and nuances. Even after decades of playing I tend to find some of the lower priced mouthpiece to be quite good. I also agree with the above posts as to the tips. I use a .095" and find it to be good for most players starting out. Anything more closed tends to get stuffy and a 95 is a good place to start. A Rico Graftonite B5 or a Metalite M5 would be my choice. Once you get your tenor chops in line, then go try some higher priced mouthpieces. You may find the Rico is still a good mouthpiece. They start under $20 so you won't be out a lot of money. Actually I can send you a nice B5 and a new one in a large chamber both for $35 shipped. Try anything you can get your hands on. The Link suggestion is good but I would wait until you have a better grasp on tenor to make the right decision. Coltrane did use Links and sounded pretty good!!!

 

[thisisdom]

Thanks for all the helpful responses! I'll make a note to try these mouthpieces you've suggested when I go to the shop.

So it sounds like I might have to spend a while getting used to playing tenor. Hopefully I can get used to it enough to work out which mouthpiece is best. Oh, and I think my tip opening is fairly small on my alto. I use an "E Rousseau Studio Jazz 5", which I think might be 0.071" (from a brief search on google).

Oh, and sorry... but what exactly do you mean by "metal links"? I think I may be missing the point there...

 

[soybean]

So it sounds like I might have to spend a while getting used to playing tenor. Hopefully I can get used to it enough to work out which mouthpiece is best.

Yes, you will need to play tenor for a while to know what mouthpiece will work for you. Don't spend a lot of money until you have some tenor chops built up.

what exactly do you mean by "metal links"?

Otto Link makes mouthpieces of both metal and hard rubber.

 

[MojoBari]

Someone who knows how to play altissimo could probably pick up you sax with your mouthpiece and play altissimo on it. If not, they could play it with their mouthpiece on your sax. The sax choice is not that critical for altissimo.

 

[Dr G]

When people talk about having to develop "Link Chops" They are too often talking about overcoming a flawed piece.

I respectfully disagree.

Links are great fun and can do so much.

It's that can "do so much" part of it - Links can be very versatile once you learn how to blow them - aka develop "Link chops" - in contrast to using a high baffled, pea shootin', one-trick pony.

P.S. and OBTW: Not limited to mouthpieces by Otto Link. It's a comment on the mouthpiece designs derived from Otto Links - it was a great design.

 

[thisisdom]

soybean, thanks for the answers. I thought it might have meant otto links. Sounds like otto link are definitely worth a look at. Also, won't my experience with alto help at all with using a tenor mouthpiece? Is it really that different?

So in terms of fingering, does it differ at all? Also, I hear tenor has a bigger altissimo range then alto. Is that true? Is it easier at all on tenor? (yes, I really want to learn altissimo ;p)

I hope I'll be able to adjust fast... What do you reckon i'd sound like playing a tenor in the shop for the first time? Do you think i'll be able to play it well enough to decide what sort of mouthpiece I'll be wanting? (I know a good shop where I can take as long as I like).

Also, could anyone explain what "lays" are defined as? I can't seem to find a definition. Is that anything to do with the tip opening?

 

[Dr G]

Keep your expectations low and you'll never be disappointed.

Or...

Buy a decent mouthpiece and commit to it for a while. Tenor is a different horn and deserves the work it takes to get a great sound.

Treat it as "just another saxophone" and you'll get the crappy tone you deserve.

Will you get a good tone the first time you pick up the horn? Not likely.

Tenor - It's all that matters.

 

[Grumps]

...yes, I really want to learn altissimo...

It's in how you blow. You need to blow differently than for normal notes by squeezing the air flow a bit by raising the back of your tongue up towards the roof of your mouth. A more open tipped mouthpiece makes altissimo easier for me, though I didn't learn altissimo on a very open tipped mouthpiece. But thinking more on this, a more open mouthpiece makes everything easier for me, as I'm better suited for same.

 

[JohnGalt]

I respectfully disagree.

It's that can "do so much" part of it - Links can be very versatile once you learn how to blow them - aka develop "Link chops" - in contrast to using a high baffled, pea shootin', one-trick pony.

P.S. and OBTW: Not limited to mouthpieces by Otto Link. It's a comment on the mouthpiece designs derived from Otto Links - it was a great design.

Hmm, interesting . . . I too disagree with Phil-tones "Ya have to get you link refaced when its new or it will suck" mentality (isnt he a refacer?), but I also disagree with you that a Link isn't a "one trick pony" or that a Guardala is.

 

[Dr G]

Did I say "Guardala"? No.

If you can't get a range of tones out of a decent Link and use it in a variety of genres, then you are the one trick pony.

 

[JohnGalt]

Didnt mean you meant a Guardala specifically.
But the vast majority of Link players seem more "one-trick-pony-ish" to me interms of expression range. Perhaps these are inferior players, but any criticisms of lack of expression from non-link players would take on the same analysis I would imagine.