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· Distinguished SOTW Member
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It seems despite price folks are fascinated by push button mouthpieces. No finishing, no play testing...new fangled technthat only promises in hype to deliver. Seems most often it does not.

...it reminds me of Star Trek. Would you rather have a replicator or A meal prepare by a master chef?
...Sure a replicator would beat a microwave and be handy but do you want a microwave musical instrument? Banquet is ready to make one for you. Feel free to open your wallet and pay two or three bills for an 89 cent item.

Most of the time I sell as much as I can produce comfortably but it still does not erase my concern For where we are heading. There is a lot to lose when our lives are dominated by mass produced items in every corner of existence. Its not much different than mass produced expression...mass produced thought...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No problem Grumps. Im used to most of what you say being either hostile or negative. I dont think that will change without long term therapy. Its just a bit of frustration with a push button word. A world where the height of home furnishing is IKEA and pressboard. Mouthpieces made poorly from milk cartons, and a general absence of craftsmanship in most venues.

Just keepin it real here too,
 

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Well SYOS is making waves somehow. 3D printed, no hand finishing, and overpriced for what they are. I’ve never tried one, some people swear they’re amazing. I prefer to buy pieces made by craftsmen who also happen to play, so they know what to tweak.

With that said, can’t wait to receive the Mosaic I just ordered ;)
 

· SOTW Columnist and Forum Contributor 2015-2016
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I am trying to figure out what this post is even talking about. I can only guess that you're trying to complain about other mouthpiece companies and trying to say yours are better?

No offense, it just seems at best like a badly worded advertisement to me.

- Saxaholic
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Not that mine are better....that many are better. Be it the furnishing in your home or the mouthpiece on your horn, there are ramifications to the disappearance of craftsmen. Its nothing new but rapidly progressing. The sad thing is that in the end the consumer gets less and pays more. For example, you would not believe the prices people pay for furniture over here. Furnishings people would consider junk 25 years ago...and at prices, despite inflation are insane compared to what that adjusted price would buy in the past.

And if you dont like my wording dont read my posts. There is an ignore button. Its easy to locate.
 

· Just a guy who plays saxophone.
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Thank you, Phil for the refreshing post, and yes, it goes (way too) far beyond mouthpieces. The responses show the ignorance. I fear explaining your frustration would hurt some butts and bring out some not welcome on the forum political arguments about the state of our world that people just aren’t willing to accept. Chef every time please.
 

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It seems despite price folks are fascinated by push button mouthpieces. No finishing, no play testing...new fangled technthat only promises in hype to deliver. Seems most often it does not.

...it reminds me of Star Trek. Would you rather have a replicator or A meal prepare by a master chef?
...Sure a replicator would beat a microwave and be handy but do you want a microwave musical instrument? Banquet is ready to make one for you. Feel free to open your wallet and pay two or three bills for an 89 cent item.

Most of the time I sell as much as I can produce comfortably but it still does not erase my concern For where we are heading. There is a lot to lose when our lives are dominated by mass produced items in every corner of existence. Its not much different than mass produced expression...mass produced thought...
I hear what others are saying about this post but at the bottom of my heart, I agree with you, especially since it resonates what Ron was talking about over and again. "There is no excuse for a good sound when you can have a great sound"

And like Grumps, I have some mass produced pieces that I play on and off depending on what is needed so there is nothing that precludes a mass produced MPC from being bad.

On a sidenote I just answered a post on FB where somebody claimed that every single reed from company xyz was perfect out of the box that he probably never played a really good reed :)
 

· SOTW Columnist and Forum Contributor 2015-2016
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I would argue there are more mouthpiece craftsmen today than there were in the past, so I'm not sure how this post is relevant...or even true?

Brian Powell, Eric Griffenhagen, Ted Klum, Sebastian Knox, Steve Kammerer, Sakshama, MOJO, Ed Zentera, James Bunte, Johannes Gerber, Eric Falcon, Matt Marantz, and tons of other craftsmen who can make you a custom mouthpiece. These are just the ones off the top of my head.

That list is far longer than what was available in the past. Further, you can buy a "mass produced" mouthpiece and send it to one of these guys and they can turn it into a custom creation.

So, again, how is the mouthpiece craftsmen supply dwindling? I would argue there is more craftsmanship and more choice now than ever before.

- Saxaholic
 

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this is a trend that's been going on for years. the products you find in home depot, for example, cost about the same now as they did then, but the quality is much diminished. we live in an ADD society - or dog and squirrel - we chase what we see until something else catches our eye.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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The standard factory mouthpiece that comes with your new horn is no longer a Selmer C*. Recent technology has pushed the boundary yet further, and I’m not talking multi-axis, high-precision CNC processing high quality bar stock.

Phil - Please define what it is that you are calling “push button” mouthpieces.

“Chef” clearly translates to “craftsman” here, but the other end of the spectrum is not as obvious to those less informed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Push button item...mouthpiece or otherwise that is designed. A button pushed, the item spit out with no hand work, no individual product testing...just out in a box and sold. Monkey work.

...High precision cnc is not included because its far more skilled than button pushing. Additionally, a good cnc product still requires human input post machining. Some believe it does not happen but on good pieces its obvious, even with quick visual inspection, that it has.

But dont buy a Phil-tone. Its a bad idea. Buy a push button piece or better yet, one you cant return. Customer service is another thing that people should avoid at all cost. After all its the 21st century.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
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I think people are misunderstanding this thread.

Well SYOS is making waves somehow. 3D printed, no hand finishing, and overpriced for what they are.
I think THIS is more an example of what Phil is addressing.

The 3-D Printer miracle machines and the like.

As opposed to dissing the regular ol' mass-produced $125-under stuff which has been around for quite a while.

Nor did I read it as some sort of comment on the availability of hand-crafted or hand-altered 'pieces, nor the number of artisans who ply the trade.

(If I am wrong, please correct me...)

A valid 'rant' if you will. It's kinda hard for a knowledgable player to argue that a 3-D printer is gonna spit out a 'piece as refined and well-crafted as one which is hand-finished or hand-tweaked.
And if that is the case...why are people spending $ on those ?... when the $ could be getting them a reputable, hand-finished one ?

I suspect what Manitou suggested. Flavor of the Month. "Ooh, look ! Sumthin' Shiny !!!"

Sadly, much consumerism is nothing more that this....
 

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Well, at least Phil isn't saying that 3d printed plastic is toxic, like another unnamed mouthpiece maker.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I dont want to point fingers and poke individual makers. Everyone has to make a living but when you put all you’ve got into making something....well, you can fill in the blanks. Its kind of like your favorite, reliable gig spot sending you home since you were replaced by a DJ.
 

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It looks like a healthy market, to me. A spectrum. Something for everyone.
There should always be cheap and healthy options as well as specialty treats. And stuff in-between.
Bad looking situations are like when there's a monopoly / oligopoly able to drive down quality, drive up cost and stall innovation. Or when poor quality is not discernable by the average consumer (look at the regular fuss about $€£200 horns). Or when the price difference between the mediocre and the excellent is unbridgeable.
 

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OK, let's run that pop fly out.

1) There are several aspects to making a MP. There's the internal chamber which is generally a molded or cast form with minimal finishing just to clean it up. Nowadays there are people machining the chamber with CNC machines, which can make some shapes that casting can't, but can't make some shapes that casting can. There's the facing, which can be done by machine start to finish, can be roughed out with a machine and finished by hand, or can be done by hand start to finish. And there's some fine tuning of baffle and that area right in front of the tip rail, which is probably always done by hand or left off altogether.

2) Let's take these one by one.

- If the chamber's CNC machined, there might still be need of some handwork to create some shapes that casting/molding would do but CNC can't.
- If the chamber's cast/molded, there should be some handwork to clean it up; whether it goes beyond that to create shapes that casting/molding can't is the choice of the manufacturer.
- I can't see that there's any advantage to making the entire facing by hand, but if you're not prepared for the investment in machinery and setup to make accurate machine cut facings, you'll want to do the facing finishing by hand. Advantage is that it can be really accurate; disadvantage is that such accuracy is 100% human dependent and the best human is far less consistent than a good machine.
- Tip rail and baffle fine tuning - if your machine made parts are accurate enough, fine tuning these shouldn't be needed - unless you need to make shapes that the machine can't. But it may not be possible to get "accurate enough" unless you invest cost-prohibitively.

3) The ability to make by machine mouthpieces accurate enough and consistent enough to equal or exceed the results of human fine finishing is not a technical challenge. It's a financial challenge. I guarantee, as a mechanical engineer of almost 40 years' experience wtih mass production manufactured products, that the equipment I've worked with in my career can far exceed the tolerances of any manual process. The question is, are you prepared to invest? You've got to sell a pant load of mouthpieces to pay for the equipment. And that means only a few designs. And even then there's going to be SOME hand work. Ever try to deburr a machined part without hand work? Even with free cutting brass it'd damn near impossible never to have burrs that need manual removing.

4) If you want something different than the mainstream, you're back to hand work to get it. You're going to have to accept less consistency and accuracy than the best machine made product, in return for getting a design that the mass production houses can't afford to make. And that's what the huge number of mouthpiece makers currently entering the market are offering.

5) Keep in mind that those great players of the past typically played machine made models of modest price that may or may not have been fiddled with. Look at the setups and it's just the same names over and over and over again: Link, Brilhart, Berg, Meyer, Gregory, and a couple others.

If the complaint is that people are using 3-d printing to make good accurate products that work well, that's just a modern day version of forming the chamber shape by casting (technology of 1500) or CNC machining (technology of 1990). Unless you mine the copper and tin and zinc yourself, smelt it, cast it, and do every bit of work using hand tools only (OK, a spring pole lathe is acceptable) then you're relying on machine technology. How do you think the files you use to clean up castings are made? On a big honkin' automatic machine. Where do you think your brass bar stock comes from? Ever seen inside a modern rolling mill? Your hard rubber blanks are molded in an injection molding machine which at this point in time is festooned with computerized controls to give you a more consistent product by far than what Otto Link bought back in 1940 from his molding house that used cam operated machines with big Bourdon tube pressure gauges.

If the complaint is that people are using 3-d printers to make inaccurate products that don't work, I suspect that'll fix itself because the products will suck.
 
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