Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am a new member (joined today), and not really a saxophonist (pianist, guitarist actually); I've inherited an Lyon & Healy alto, engraved with Pan playing pipes on the bell. Although I was told, in 1984 (by Wally Kane, a saxophonist who used to play in Doc Severinson's orchestra on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and in the New York Saxophone Quartet), that it was likely a Martin, I know think it may be a Couturier stencil (don't jump all over me Laporte! I know how you hate that term since L&H took over the Couturier factory in 1928). Any thoughts? Bruce Bailey, who apparently has a horn with the same engraving, can you weigh in? I don't have the serial no. handy, but can get it when I visit the horn at the rehearsal studio.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
21,036 Posts
Re: Period of Receivership

I sold mine. These are usually the gold plated ones with the articulated octave key on the neck. These serial numbers are in the 200,000+ range and probably from 1928-29. Good players although the top end is a bit sharp and the neck to body fitting must fit well or it leaks due to the design.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
831 Posts
I am a new member (joined today) ...
Welcome on SOTW!

... a Couturier stencil (don't jump all over me Laporte! I know how you hate that term since L&H took over the Couturier factory in 1928). ...
I hope I never jumped all over anybody. If so - please let me know.

Btw the Couturier factory was taken over by L&H in 1924. Spring 1928 the equipment was sold to Holton and the factory in LaPorte was closed.

Any thoughts? Bruce Bailey, who apparently has a horn with the same engraving, can you weigh in? I don't have the serial no. handy, but can get it when I visit the horn at the rehearsal studio.
Bruce Bailey gives you a good answer. If appreciated, I'll add some info.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: Lyon Healy stencil

The photos appear to be a Courturier that was made when L&H owned them around 1928. The Mercedes cage was also used by them. Here are some other features to look for.....concave G# lever, clown engraving on bell and a serial number in the 200,000+ area.
Bruce, Sorry to jump in on this tread, but it does concern an L&H alto sax I have, that thanks to your prior treads, I believe may be a 20's Couturier stencil (although I was told it was probably a Martin stencil). I think you may have its twin, because you once mention an engraving on the bell of "Pan playing a pipes/horn". My alto has that engraving. I don't have the serial no. of my sax or a photo handy, but will get that info and a photo, shortly. I am not a sax player, but am a musician, and have been trying to ID the maker of this Alto I inherited from a cousin who played it in the Princeton band in the 40's. Do you think my "pan playing a pipes/horn" Lyon & Healy is a Couturier stencil?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
831 Posts
I moved your post to the original thread, as multiple posting of the same topic is not allowed on SOTW.

Bruce, ... Do you think my "pan playing a pipes/horn" Lyon & Healy is a Couturier stencil?
It's all right if you want the info on your alto saxophone exclusively by my friend Bruce Bailey - I suggest you to send him a personal message.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
21,036 Posts
All of the pan-pipes horns I have seen were gold plated L&Hs made by Courturier. The clown face ones were silver or lacquered (probably bare brass originally).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks, Bruce, and thanks, LaPorte (no, you've never "jumped" on or over anybody... just an expression. I know how precise you are when the term "stencil" is used). Bruce or LaPorte, my horn was overhauled in 1986 or so, and is still very playable (it's played weekly by a real saxophonist in my band). Haven't notice it being sharp in the higher registers, but I'll defer to my friend who plays it, and ask his opinion. Any idea of the value of the horn?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian
Joined
·
7,110 Posts
Used to own a "clown face" L&H sop, silver, #201xxx. Sold it to a friend who is now a dean at Fordham University.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Yes, mine is gold-plated. Were the "pan-pipe" ones denominated with a particular "model" name?
Mine was overhauled in or about 1985, and still plays very well (it's been played weekly for no more than 2 hours at a time, and has since been adjusted from time to time by a technician in the NYC area. Haven't noticed it being sharp in the upper registers, but I'll have to listen more carefully.
Any idea about value range?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
21,036 Posts
I would put it in the $600-750 range if it has no finish wear and no dents. I sold one needing pads but in playing condition for about $350 with the original case and mouthpiece.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
831 Posts
I would put it in the $600-750 range if it has no finish wear and no dents.
I agree. A couple of years ago I paid ca. $550 for this top-of-the-line alto - not in playable condition.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
831 Posts
... Were the "pan-pipe" ones denominated with a particular "model" name? ...
Since 1925/1926 Lyon & Healy's first line was denominated "Artist" saxophones provided in different finishes, e.g.:

Finish 5: Heavily gold plated; satin finish; ... $ 226 (alto)
Finish 6: Heavily gold plated and hand burnished all over. ... Prices on request.

Both finishes are elaborately engraved and show a satyr on the bell playing a tityrinos, a double shepherd's pipe. This beautiful subject was apparently ceased in 1928.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
3,952 Posts
Hi, la Porte, Soybean and Bruce & all!
So many places on SOTW to find bits of L&H...trying here first.

Just received a L&H American Professional Chicago alto #63551(curved layout) low pitch,no pearls, round concave G# no high F,
Rose pattern? on bell. No Mercedes guards, bow fin is ?
Looking for dateing & finish, looks like bare brass? Could it be gold plate? But most importantly made by who ??
Also how long did L&H name continued 19?? Suggestions on where to read about history ?
For now I’m going to look back on Holton threads
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
929 Posts
^What Bruce said.
I see a lot of shared parts/design with my Buescher TTs, and that looks to be a rather early TT that was stenciled as a L&H.
As for when the name stopped being used, whenever the company stopped having saxes stenciled, I haven't seen any past WW2 under Lyon and Healy's name, so that's hopefully a start.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
3,952 Posts
Thank you gentlemen, my research adventure has begun. I agree that it has some Buescher looking DNA like bow fin. And when you look at the patent stamp it’s a license and date. No patent number. Many little subtleties to observe here. That serial number is a big clue. Dan, Felix, SOS help! I can’t find any signs of this thing ever being lacquered. The previous owner obviously did some polishing and I don’t see anywhere that the plating has worn off. like normally seen on the guards. I’m pretty convinced it’s just brass. That’s also why I took pictures on different backgrounds. Contrast, different lighting really changes it’s appearance. Makes me crazy not to know what I own. And I don’t care about its value. I like it for what it is and the history is its value. Oh it plays too !
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
3,952 Posts
Mentioned on another thread that the joint rings with three bands are the older ones.the change took place in 1920. The pictures have long since left the postings. So can anyone tell me if these are the three ring bands?

View attachment 174826 .
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Technician
Joined
·
21,036 Posts
The bands are not the same as the IBIC ones on the Martin types. It may be a horn made using Buescher parts mostly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
My vote is Buescher TrueTone stencil, 1920, bare brass. The serial numbers on the old TT stencils seem to follow the standard Buescher serial # chart. Don't get too bogged down in the minutiae. That bow fin is unique to Buescher TTs and their stencils. Horns made that early would not have been lacquered, and gold plate would be highly unusual on a stencil. It would have either been bare brass or silver plated when new. Look for little specks of silver plating in the engraving - sometimes some remains there if a horn has had it's plating stripped.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top