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200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Hey there.

I'm looking for an inexpensive (less than 200€) clip-on mic that's good quality. Basically, every mic that I see people like, costs at least 500€, which is WAY over my budget. I'd like a good clip-on mic + decent preamp for the lowest price possible. And I have no idea what to get.

I know clip-ons have their downsides, but I need the mobility, and I hate having to be pointing at the standing mic without being able to move too much or turn too much. Besides, clip-ons aren't that bad, are they?

I also have a question...

How exactly does the sound engineer work together with your setup? Am I supposed to have a mic + preamp and have him hook the preamp to the giant equalizer preamp thing? If so, what's the point of having a phantom power preamp, or any preamp for that matter? Can't he work the bass, mid and treble frequencies himself? And the gain? And the volume?

Cheers
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

You don't need a preamp.

Are we talking wired or wireless?
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

You don't need a preamp.

Are we talking wired or wireless?
We're talking wired. Can't afford wireless... Unless I get something like the Samson Airline 77, 300$ is still pretty high.

Why don't I need a preamp? I'd like to eventually do some of my own recording solo, along with a home-made-studio-attic-thing with a group of mine, that's why I thought preamp.

Also, if I don't need a preamp why does... pretty much every relevant jazz saxophonist have one? Eric Marienthal comes to mind, he uses a whole freaking rack with a preamp and ****.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Eric uses one because he can afford it, not because he needs one.:)

Actually, I heard him play straight ahead, and he didn't use any of that stuff. Just a clipon.

Anywayz, to answer your question, take a look at the ATM 350. It works fine.

To do recording, you need a computer USB interface--they generally have preamps. However, I don't recommend recording with a clipon.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Eric uses one because he can afford it, not because he needs one.:)

Actually, I heard him play straight ahead, and he didn't use any of that stuff. Just a clipon.

Anywayz, to answer your question, take a look at the ATM 350. It works fine.

To do recording, you need a computer USB interface--they generally have preamps. However, I don't recommend recording with a clipon.
Why not? Too much key sound?

I'm also a bit scared of these minuscule microphones. They are truly, very small, and I really doubt their quality sometimes. I thought bigger = better (no pun intended).
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Why not? Too much key sound?

I'm also a bit scared of these minuscule microphones. They are truly, very small, and I really doubt their quality sometimes. I thought bigger = better (no pun intended).
Nope. Some of the best measurement microphones use elements that are around a cm in diameter.

Recording (as well as sound reinforcemnt) is a craft, meaning that there are no real 'rules', just rules of thumb. One of the rules of thumb for recording is that the microphone needs to be further away from the instrument than for sound reinforcement.

I mean, think about it. You have a splendid transducer called the 'eardrum'. How big is its element?
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Also, what's that about phantom power? Still have no idea what that is. The ATM350 should work with any decent cube-thing-speaker, right?

Also, it's XLR output. I can get an adapter for jack input if I need to (and I will need it), but does it mess with the quality?
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

The one I use cost about €20.

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-clipon-microphone.html

I'd put money on it sounding as good as or better than any other clipon. (Using it this weekend on one of my very reage gigs with Planetary Assault Systems in Paris this weekend.

Some people might think it odd that I'm using that to amplify a €10,000 saxophone!
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

....Also, it's XLR output. I can get an adapter for jack input if I need to (and I will need it), but does it mess with the quality?
The signal level from any mic (even a dynamic mic) will be very low on the wire. You *need* a balanced cable to connect your mic to whatever amplifier you use. A mic cable having an XLR jack at both ends is the most common type of balanced cable. There is another type of balanced cable which has an XLR female jack on one end (this can connect to a dynamic mic such as a Shure SM58), and has what appears to be a 1/4 inch wide stereo headphone jack on the other end. This 1/4 inch wide, 3-connector male jack is not for stereo, but has 3 connectors for a balanced connection. If the amp (or powered speaker) that you connect your mic to has an XLR input (balanced), then use it. If it only has a 1/4 inch wide input jack, then check its manuals to see if it is a *balanced* input jack (3 connectors).

If the amp does not have a balanced input for a mic (XLR or balanced 1/4 inch 3-connector), then it is not designed to take a mic input, and you should then seek a different amp, or add a preamp.

Also, what's that about phantom power? Still have no idea what that is. The ATM350 should work with any decent cube-thing-speaker, right?......
What I wrote above assumes you have a dynamic mic. If instead you get a condenser mic, then you either will need to be able to connect it to a mixing board or amp which has phantom power on its XLR input, or get an additional preamp which has phantom power. Note that mics like the ATM 350 are condenser mics, but they come with a little preamp which you can wear on your belt and is powered by a 9V battery. This makes the output from the belt pack look like the output from a dynamic mic, which means the thing you connect this belt pack to does not need phantom power. The Shure *wired* sax mic (Beta 98) is an example of a condenser mic which requires phantom power, and which does NOT include a little preamp which you can wear on your belt.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

I'm usually drawn away by belt packs... They always seem really weird to me. I'd only wear a belt pack if I was doing wireless, and even then...

@harmonizerNJ, isn't it safe to assume that all modern amps will have phantom power? Also, can you get phantom power from a 1/4 jack input?
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

......isn't it safe to assume that all modern amps will have phantom power? ....
It depends what you are plugging into. I double on keyboard, so I use my keyboard amp as my on stage monitor for my sax, and plug my sax mic into my keyboard amp. The XLR input jack on my keyboard amp does not support phantom power. Certain amps or mixing boards may support phantom power on only a limited subset of their inputs.

......Also, can you get phantom power from a 1/4 jack input?
The device we use as a mixing board has some inputs which will accept either a 1/4 inch TRS jack or XLR jack, but its manual says that the phantom power will only work via the XLR connector. It may be technically possible to supply phantom power via a balanced TRS 1/4 inch jack, but I am going to guess this is not typical.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Good day Pete. I'm sorry to perhaps bother you with this, as you may have had many questions about it already, but I've just come upon your article on your DIY Sax clip-on using a Realistic 33-1063 Electret Tie Pin Microphone. Holly cow was this article mind-blowing!! The funniest thing is that I have that exact Mic, and I had purchased it some 20 years ago when I used to make amateur videos. I was further blown away after hearing the sound clips you've also provided! I could barely hear the difference between the expensive clip-on Mic and the Realistic one. I'm a Singer/Sax player in a 50s R&R band, and I've been getting a little tired of always Miking my Sax with a regular Mic on a stand. I will absolutely try this test myself, which is to play with the Realistic clip-on. My question to you is this though: For sure, listening to your sound clips, I'm convinced that the Realistic Mic will sound at least as well as other more expensive ones, but how does it perform Live? I mean, with all of the surrounding sounds, and having to put the volume pretty much up, does it still work well? Did you ever get feedback from it? I mention these things because if I compare the technical specifics of say, an Audio Technica Pro-35 and the specs of the Realistic Mic, the main difference I see is in the frequency responses. For the Pro-35. it's 50-15,000 Hz, while for the Electret Tie-Clip Microphone (which you believed to be equivalent to the Realistic Mic), it's 100Hz to 16KHz. I don't know much about Mic responses etc, but I believe that these have somewhat to do with the Highs and the Lows. If it is indeed the case, then it would seem that this Realistic Mic might not do so well in the Lows. I may be totally wrong though, and that's why I'm asking you what you think. Are you still using this Radio-Shack Mic for gigs? Do you still feel it performs really well, to your liking, and without feedback or strange noise issues? Thanks a lot in advance for the help Pete. I appreciate it. Cheers.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Good day Pete. I'm sorry to perhaps bother you with this, as you may have had many questions about it already, but I've just come upon your article on your DIY Sax clip-on using a Realistic 33-1063 Electret Tie Pin Microphone. Holly cow was this article mind-blowing!! The funniest thing is that I have that exact Mic, and I had purchased it some 20 years ago when I used to make amateur videos. I was further blown away after hearing the sound clips you've also provided! I could barely hear the difference between the expensive clip-on Mic and the Realistic one. I'm a Singer/Sax player in a 50s R&R band, and I've been getting a little tired of always Miking my Sax with a regular Mic on a stand. I will absolutely try this test myself, which is to play with the Realistic clip-on. My question to you is this though: For sure, listening to your sound clips, I'm convinced that the Realistic Mic will sound at least as well as other more expensive ones, but how does it perform Live? I mean, with all of the surrounding sounds, and having to put the volume pretty much up, does it still work well? Did you ever get feedback from it?
I hadn't used it live until a couple of weeks ago when I was asked to guest with Planetary Assault Systems at a very very loud gig as fabric in London and Le Social Club in Paris this weekend. Well, it was absolutely fine.

I got a very loud but "realistic" (no pun intended) sound with no feedback. The thing about omni mics, as any engineer will tell you, is that the sound from them is very often better (or rather, more natural) than a similar mic which is cardioid. Theoretically a cardioid mic will feedback less, but they don't sound too well when placed very close to the source.

Look at it like this: feedback is caused by the mic picking up the already amplified sound. A directional mic helps to not do this if pointed at the saxophone and (ideally) away from any monitors. An omni mic in the same position will pic up more of the amplified sound and so feedback. But the fact that you can move it closer to the saxophone and still sound good.

This makes an omni mic ideal as a clip on, but not so good on a stand, because you would then not be able to move very far from the stand, the engineer would need to turn the mic up and that is when you'd get feedback.

I mention these things because if I compare the technical specifics of say, an Audio Technica Pro-35 and the specs of the Realistic Mic, the main difference I see is in the frequency responses. For the Pro-35. it's 50-15,000 Hz, while for the Electret Tie-Clip Microphone (which you believed to be equivalent to the Realistic Mic), it's 100Hz to 16KHz. I don't know much about Mic responses etc, but I believe that these have somewhat to do with the Highs and the Lows. If it is indeed the case, then it would seem that this Realistic Mic might not do so well in the Lows.
This might be the case if you were working with a solo saxophone. However when mixing the saxophone in with a band, I find anything that might be in the saxophone sound in the region of 100 Hz is not much use to me, it gets in the way of the bass and muddies things up. I can happily filter out frequencies that low. (In case you don't know) my main job is audio production, and over the years have developed a technique of NOT using an equaliser if possible, I prefer to rely on microphone placement, room and sometimes compression. If I do equalise I prefer to filter rather than boost or attenuate certain frequencies.

One more thing: 100Hz to 16 kHz, does not mean the sound suddenly cuts out at 99.9 Hz anyway. What determines to me that this is a good mic is that it compares to my ears (and the ears of other producers I know) extremely well with that £2000 AKG which I sometimes use. I could have used very expensive clip on mics for those gigs ( I wouldn't be paying for them) but I prefer to use the Electret because it just works so well.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Well then Pete, you've also answered another of my questions. When looking at these clip-on Mics from Radio Shack, I noticed that most of them were Omnidirectional, and I then assumed that it wouldn't be good for Live shows, but then I imagined that if I'd put it really close to the bell, maybe even somewhat in it, I'd then avoid possible feedback issues. The strange thing is that I tried my old Realistic clip-on Mic yesterday, and it's volume was super low, even barely audible (even if I switched it to On). To make sure it wasn't the battery, I had bought extra ones, and the problem was still there. When I plugged into in a channel of my friend's P/A, there was almost no sound. So it could either be that the wire is damaged (I've had this for some 20 years), or the batteries were all weak (bought at Dollar store), or the 1/8 to 1/4" jack adaptor that I put on it was maybe for Stereo, and not for Mono (or vice versa). I might as well just go buy the more recent Electret model. Once again Pete, thanks so much for the very insightful infos. I'll try this real soon, and hopefully, I may be able to have it for my next gig. Cheers!
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

For the Pro-35. it's 50-15,000 Hz, while for the Electret Tie-Clip Microphone (which you believed to be equivalent to the Realistic Mic), it's 100Hz to 16KHz. I don't know much about Mic responses etc, but I believe that these have somewhat to do with the Highs and the Lows. If it is indeed the case, then it would seem that this Realistic Mic might not do so well in the Lows.
In addition to what Pete wrote, you can check. Let's look at the tenor sax. The lowest note (almost always) is low Bb. This is (assuming the usual A = 440-444 tuning) about 104hz. So, a mic "bottoming" at 100hz would cover the entire range of the tenor sax. But like Pete wrote, it doesn't suddenly stop and doesn't capture anything below that. Sometimes the human ear hears the combination of overtones almost as loud if not louder than the basic note.

For example, I sometimes use a clarinet pickup on a bass clarinet. Its response is hardly optimal for bass clarinet, but it captures the lowest note just fine, about 58hz. It doesn't have optimal response below the soprano clarinet range but it is still preferable to my clip-on mics in some situations.

Like Pete says, it's a lot about what you want to do, how you use what you use, etc. It's best to try, experiment and consult people with real knowledge and experience. For example, I've got the best sound on recordings from a few mics, one of those mics was a Neumann that is considered one of the best mics ever made. But my worst ever professional recording (i.e. recorded in a top studio with pro sound engineer, but the sound was very bad IMO) was also done with the exact same model microphone!

Re the low volume you got, it's definitely worth trying other mics, if it's not expensive for you. I don't know too much about it, but I think using balanced (i.e. "stereo") cables/connectors with instrument signals can cause a low signal. I'm not sure what type of signal that microphone you are trying is giving. I think microphones usually work with a balanced cable (even those not requiering phantom). Maybe it just needs more gain, as long as it doesn't feedback and you can get the volume you want it doesn't matter if it's "not normal".

Re omni vs. cardoid etc. it all depends too IMO. For example my girlfriend specifically chose an omni string instrument mic because it allows some things that are harder if not impossible to get with the cardoid version. But for loud or other specific situations it can feedback more than the caroid version. It's rare, but there are situations like this occasionally. So this all depends on the specific mic and what you want/need to do.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Well then Pete, you've also answered another of my questions. When looking at these clip-on Mics from Radio Shack, I noticed that most of them were Omnidirectional, and I then assumed that it wouldn't be good for Live shows, but then I imagined that if I'd put it really close to the bell, maybe even somewhat in it, I'd then avoid possible feedback issues. The strange thing is that I tried my old Realistic clip-on Mic yesterday, and it's volume was super low, even barely audible (even if I switched it to On).
Re the low volume you got, it's definitely worth trying other mics, if it's not expensive for you. I don't know too much about it, but I think using balanced (i.e. "stereo") cables/connectors with instrument signals can cause a low signal.
The low level of this mic is not normal, if you think about it, it is designed to pick up voices from a distance grater than you get with a saxophone clipon, which are much lower in level. I get tons of level from mine so I think if the level is low there is something wrong.

One thing I didn't mention above re: mics in general, when looking at the "quality" of a microphone, as well as the faithfulness of the sound reproduction, you need to assess the signal to noise ratio. If a microphone does have a very low signal output (which, as I said, this one doesn't normally) then when you turn up the amplifier to get enough loudness, you ae also turning up any unwanted noise there may be, which is usually hums of some description. This is a reason why you often need specialist preamps with many ribbon mics which have a ow output. But agin, in this case it should not be necessary.
 

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Re: 200€< Clip-on Mic + Question

Ok. Thnx Pete and Clarnibass. I want to try a new Omni clip-on Mic (might as well since my old one seems to be shot), but I now realize that I may need a Unidirectional. Here's why: I play Sax, but I also sing. The main reason I started to look for a better set-up is because since I've started to gig some 6 months ago, I've often experienced feedback problems. For everyone to understand what the potential problem could be (so to help people who may have the same problem), I use a Nady VHM-7 bullet Mic to sing in (I know, it's a Harp Mic, but it was said to also be a Vocal one), and an EV Raven Mic for my Horn. Obviously, my singing Mic is placed pretty much on a stand, in front of my face, but a bit lower and facing slightly upwards. My Raven Mic is on another stand, but almost at waist level, and pointing somewhat downwards, so I can aim the bell of the horn towards it when I solo.

At 1st, I thought the feedback was caused by the proximity of the 2 Mics. I mention this because I once tried to push away the Sax Mic a little further, and the feedback went away. But I can't keep that Mic so far away cuz I often litterally jump on my Horn to solo right after a singing passage. The extra distance causes me to lose a beat or 2, and messes up the solo in general. At my last gig, things went well for a while, and suddenly, the feedback reappeared. Both my Mics were still rather close to each other, but after talking to a Soundman, I was told that it doesn't matter how many Mics there are, or how close they are. It's the placement of the other things, like the Monitors and the Loud Speakers, that matter. Well, I don't know what to believe anymore 'cause I came upon a text (found on the web) writen by the Shure company, which explains everything about good Live and Studio Audio. In this document, it is clearly said that Mic placement/proximity (in relation to each other) is also a determining factor when it comes to possible feedback. Anyways, it's probably true, but obviously, I'm not the only person to play Sax and sing too, so Mic proximity is perhaps not a problem for them.

Other folks have told me that my Nady Mic is the problem. I do Rockabilly and 50s R&R, and so I wanted a retro looking Mic (actually, for both Mics), but I didn't want the Shure 55. I love that Mic, but it's said to be not as amazing as people believe, and in terms of looks, it's become way too common for me. There's a guy on The Price is Right who uses it for God's sake! I'm sorry, I don't mean to belittle the Mic, but I've always strived to be as original as possible in my choice of things, whenever it's possible or course, and without sacrificing too much on quality. I know this Nady Mic is probably of mediocre quality, but I like its sound, I don't need to yell to be heard, and it doesn't really distort either in the Lows or Highs.

Still, for the sake of eliminating the feedback problem ASAP, I thought maybe I should use my Raven Mic to sing (which I've tried at a jam space, and it sounded good), and have a clip-on Mic for my Horn. I'm also getting tired of just standing in front of a Mic to play Horn. If I could get mobility, why not? Yes, I could just go for an Audio Technica Pro35, or any other good quality clip-on, but I suddenly came upon the article writen by Pete, and it made me curious. I'm usually a firm believer in the statement "You get what you pay for", but I also believe that sometimes, creativity and imagination can bring some people to discover amazing new things.

The other problem I'd foresee with a Omnidirectional clip-on Mic is that, being that I'm also using a singing Mic, I'd certainly get feedback again because of the even closer proximity (holding my Sax in my hands while singing, consequently bringing the clip-on closer to the singing Mic). So again, maybe a Unidirectional Mic would be better. A detail I forgot to mention is budget. I can go as high as 150$, but not much more. I really wish to keep my Nady Mic too, unless it's totally clear to me that it is indeed the culprit, so I'm even considering changing it's Element for a Shure 58 Beta (like some guy on the net named MutantMics does). But my worst fear would be that after doing all of those changes (switching the Element, getting a clip-on, etc), the feedback would happen again. I know the set-up of the bar where I play isn't ideal (Loudspeaker directly at 3 o'clock to my right, clipped on the wall, some 4 or 5 feet away), but I can't change that.

I guess I have to experiement, but it's difficult to do so because one can't just buy one Mic after another, until the perfect set-up is found. And Music stores don't usually lend things out just for someone to try. As a short term solution, I may end up simply having a Shure 58 on a stand for my horn, and singing with my Raven Mic, and hope for the best.
I know I have a bunch of questions here, so to make it more clear, here they are:

1) What's the best Mic set-up to avoid feedback, 2 Mics on stands, or 1 on a stand and the other a clip-on?

2) Is Omnidirectional to be avoided because of the proximity to the singing Mic?

3) Could my Nady Mic be the main culprit (perhaps too sensitive or 'Hot')? I was perhaps considering the Heil Fin to sing in, but it might also be mediocre.

4) Could I place myself differently on the stage to better the situation?

5) If a clip-on is good to have, then what should I be looking for? The A.T. Pro35 seems reasonably priced for it's quality, but maybe I could get away with something less expensive. I want to clarify the fact that I don't need wireless, and I gig about twice a month only.

Again, thnx a lot to everyone who can help. Cheers everyone.
 
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