[Jazzbjorn]

Are there 2 different diminished scales?
See, if theres a C diminished chord the scale u play consist of C D D# F F# G# A B. If theres a C7 u can play C C# Eb E F# G A Bb and that scale is also called diminished scale, right?
I do know that in both scales its either half step, whole step, half step etc. or whole step, half step, whole step. But are they both called diminished scales?

 

[lutemann]

There are only three diminished scales in the sense that there are 12 major scales. Each of the three diminished scales has only two modes. half/whole and whole/half. They are all called diminished scales.

 

[Jazzbjorn]

So if theres a c diminished chord I can play both half/whole and whole/half?

 

[LampLight]

Yes there are three diminished scales. However, if you are improvising over changes, sometimes you play half, whole, half, whole, ... and other times you play whole, half, whole, half, ... It depends on the context. Creative Jazz Imprivisation 4ed by Scott Reeves is a good resource for this, and there are others.

 

[DXCamp]

The half/whole steps and the whole/half step sequences are correct in terms of an eight note scale. Other scale choices include the six notes to the octave minor pentatonic and either a six or seven note to the octave blues scale. The underlying harmonic structure of the 1-b3-b5 or 1-b3-b5-b7 dimished chord is traditionally used as a pivot for either linking two chords in the same key or to modulate into another key.

 

[Jazzbjorn]

Ok, thanks for the answers.

 

[ZenBen]

Typically, on a diminished chord you use the whole/ half scale and on a 7 chord you use the half/ whole scale.

 

[piwikiwi]

Typically, on a diminished chord you use the whole/ half scale and on a 7 chord you use the half/ whole scale.

Or you can just view your dom 7 chord as a dim chord starting on the flat 9. That way you only have to memorize one scale. For example G7= Ab dim. Same notes except for the root.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Or you can just view your dom 7 chord as a dim chord starting on the flat 9. That way you only have to memorize one scale. For example G7= Ab dim. Same notes except for the root.

This is the way I think of it also. I was originally taught to think of the W/H off of the b9 (easy to think up a semitone) but now that I know my chord tones better I will often just think off of the 3rd, 5th or 7th.

You can of course alternatively think H/W off the root, but I find in most cases the other way tends to work best melodically, for getting the good or cool sounding notes on the right beat.

 

[ZenBen]

Or you can just view your dom 7 chord as a dim chord starting on the flat 9. That way you only have to memorize one scale. For example G7= Ab dim. Same notes except for the root.

This is the way I think of it also. I was originally taught to think of the W/H off of the b9 (easy to think up a semitone) but now that I know my chord tones better I will often just think off of the 3rd, 5th or 7th.

You can of course alternatively think H/W off the root, but I find in most cases the other way tends to work best melodically, for getting the good or cool sounding notes on the right beat.

Sure. You are both right - that is another way of thinking about it. I'm just assuming that, based on the nature of the question, the OP isn't a very advanced player. I think the approach you two are talking about is one step more advanced than my suggestion.

 

[piwikiwi]

This is the way I think of it also. I was originally taught to think of the W/H off of the b9 (easy to think up a semitone) but now that I know my chord tones better I will often just think off of the 3rd, 5th or 7th.

You can of course alternatively think H/W off the root, but I find in most cases the other way tends to work best melodically, for getting the good or cool sounding notes on the right beat.

I agree. I also don't really think about the scale itself it think about the diminished chord with a chromatic neighbouring note from below.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Sure. You are both right - that is another way of thinking about it. I'm just assuming that, based on the nature of the question, the OP isn't a very advanced player. I think the approach you two are talking about is one step more advanced than my suggestion.

Absolutely, but using diminished scales with a dom7 isn't really something for not very advanced players. But nothing wrong in dabbling with cool stuff like that, however when used properly it is advanced, because it propels you into the world of b9 #11 etc whether you know it or not. And it's best to start off on the right foot.

 

[dogbert]

I am not advanced at all, but I became hooked to that cool sound (HT/WT scale on A7 chord) by Hendersons solo on Blue Bossa (slowed it down to play it . Anyway, I was only playing around with that scale for some weeks, and Pete is right, obviously all the #9, b9 and #11 extensions are beyond my conception right now

 

[Jazzbjorn]

OK thanks for all the answers. Previously I played half/whole when I saw a dominant 7 and I havnt really practiced whole/half. I have just used the dim scale on dominant 7s.
Btw yesterday I found out a cool lick on the dim scale. The lick is a version of the first phrase in Ornithology, and all the tones are in the dim scale. This is C dim(half/whole), play C C# E G Bb A F# G A F# Eb. Play all notes as 1/8 and phrase it as the first phrase in Ornithology.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I am not advanced at all, but I became hooked to that cool sound (HT/WT scale on A7 chord) by Hendersons solo on Blue Bossa (slowed it down to play it . Anyway, I was only playing around with that scale for some weeks, and Pete is right, obviously all the #9, b9 and #11 extensions are beyond my conception right now

The best thing to do is get hold of a keyboard, play a basic voicing of the chord in your left hand (with or without the b9, just a dom 7 is fine) and just doodle around slowly with the dim scale in your right hand. Listen for the different tensions, or push and pull, of various notes and whether they "want" to go somewhere.

A great way to get a feel is to play a C7, then just doodle between Eb and Db in your right hand. Then change to an F chord in the left hand and resolve the RH Db to a C.

You don't need to be a great pianist to do this, slowly is fine, but you will hear how the Eb is a kind of suspension to the Db, which resolves beautifully to the C of the I chord ("voice leading")

Next, do the same thing but instead of the Db of the C7 to C of the F, resolve the Eb (D#) of the C7 to an E (maj7 of the F).

Sorry if that's too advanced but there's no harm in just trying it to realise how cool this can be.

Of course, the more basic voice leadings on C7 to F are the Bb to A and E to F. Get those in your brain, ears and fingers first.

 

[Jazzbjorn]

Thanks for the piano tips, I just tried out

 

[hgiles]

Consider: F6 | Ab dim | G-7 | C7

Neither HW nor WH works exclusively, but whhwwhwh. Try that on for size. I.e. There are more than three diminished scales. However there are only three different 'symmetrical' diminished scales.

 

[dogbert]

Thanks Pete, for the piano tips. I realized that the Eb (the b9 in case of the C7 Dominat) is used quite often. e.g. in "Blues walk", Lou Donaldson simply plays a long b9 note on the first beat of the V chord and I instantly hear the dominant quality (that may be plain for you, I find this pretty magic, or lets say, "unexpected"

 

[MartinMusicMan]

Pete said sort of what I was going to say but I was hesitant to get into it. I always suggest getting a keyboard and learn to form the chords on it so you can see how the chords are built and how they work in a progression. If you form a diminished chord and hear how it sounds and learn the notes that make up the chord, you can see and hear what it is and how it works. Then if you form all 12 of the diminished chords, you can see how there are really only 3 chords because the same notes make up the diminished chord for 4 different keys. (I'm not saying that well or clearly but I don't think it, I see/hear/play it.) Then when you play a chord progression with a diminished chord in it, you can see/hear/feel how the chord works in the progression and therefore what notes work over it. Play the notes of each chord over the progression and you can hear what to do, which notes to go to and how to move around in the notes. I like Pete's suggestion of playing the chords in the left hand on the keyboard, then noodling around in the right hand to get a feel for how the notes work against the chord and also how the notes move in the progression. If you can get or set up a backing track (Aebersold? Band In A Box?) with the diminished chord in the progression, then do the same thing on the horn - play the notes of the chords and doodle around with the notes of the diminished chord and scale to get a feel for what works in the context of that particular progression.

 

[JL]

The best thing to do is get hold of a keyboard, play a basic voicing of the chord in your left hand (with or without the b9, just a dom 7 is fine) and just doodle around slowly with the dim scale in your right hand. Listen for the different tensions, or push and pull, of various notes and whether they "want" to go somewhere.

This is a really good idea (and +1 to what MMM said about it), not just for diminished scales, but for everything. It's really important to HEAR what's going on.

Just returning to the basic question in the thread title, of course there are exactly three diminished scales. Whether you look at each one as 'half/whole' or 'whole/half' is simply a matter of which note you start on.