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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So i'm now a proud owner of this beauty. Before anyone knocks it (if anyone would...) I am NOT a fan, in any way, shape or form, of the lucite keyguards. So, when I found this thing on eBay, I had to have it. I use a Runyon 9 smooth bore metal and the color contrast and the engraving are simply stunning. Literally everything I wanted in terms of looks (without the original keyguard). I just have a couple questions.

The serial number puts it in 1966. I've been reading all I can but to my understanding there were a variety of options in that year. It has rolled tone holes (obviously) but no "Keilworth" engraving on the G#. Also not sure what color rollers came on the originals or if there were variety of brown/black etc. Wondering if any of you enthusiasts and/or resident experts can help clear some of this stuff up for me. I am basically wondering if everything is legit.

There is no stamp above the serial number, was that common during this time too?

Can any of you tell, more or less, what may or may not be "original." I guess are there any flags of something like "This has obviously been replaced/repaired" etc?

Thanks in advance for your time!
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Its a Keilwerth. What makes you thing the key guards are not original? The key guards are exactly like those on a Keilwerth made Bundy Special of the same era. Looks all original to me. Beautiful horn enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I actually wasn't sure if they were original keyguards. It appears to be original laquer, but the seller stated it used to have the lucite keyguard. Not sure if he was just speculating from his own research or what not. Thought maybe it was a replacement/repair job done there. That is why I posted in this forum. So far you guys are awesome :)

I didn't care either way. This horn is EXACTLY what I was looking for and in pretty darn good condition. If anyone else has input, of any type, I would love to hear it! Thanks again.

I'm kind of more specifically wondering about the "Keilwerth" engraving on the G# pinky key. From what i've seen, all of these had them. This one doesn't?

EDIT: I also forgot to mention in original post i'm not a fan of the lucite keyguards. In my humble opinion they look completely ridiculous. So I love these keyguards that are on it. I edited original post and hope that all makes more sense now in the context of everything.
 

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I loathe those ludicrous plastic keyguards too, they look like somebody bolted a 1950s vacuum cleaner part onto the horn as a poorly executed afterthought. I've got a '65ish Bundy Special tenor, as I understand it basically the same Keilwerth horn as yours and just as ugly, including nickel plated keys and the stupid plastic pants guard on the left. No big ugly plastic keyguard on the right, though. Don't think these came with them. No "Keilwerth" on the G#, and only "Made in Germany" above the SN, just like yours. Rolled tone holes. Awesome big full rockin' sound and snappy ergonomics, and the altissimo is much easier and fuller than my other tenor, an SML GM1, for which I paid many times as much as the Bundy Special, and which to my ear also has a more nuanced and flexible sound. And the SML is much much easier on the eyes. Not sure yet which one is destined to be the backup and which will be the main ax, I really like them both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Very good description. I agree 100% with the vacuum cleaner. VERY poorly executed afterthought... Then again, so were a lot of things in those years ;) I have to disagree on the "basically the same Keilwerth horn as yours and just as ugly" part though. I think its glorious. Exactly what a sax should look like IMHO (unless you are referring to them WITH the appalling wings).

So I know all the new kings (sold by keilwerth) and all the stencils (made by keilwerth) are literally the exact same horn, but I am just trying to get some concrete opinions/facts on whether that is also true for the key engraving and stamps? Sounds like you believe this to be the case, but I've seen other new kings made a year or two before or a year or two after that have them.

Anyone else have any knowledge of this??
 

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So do you not believe it is a Keilwerth?
There were many horns produced by Keilwerth that do not bear the Keilwerth logo or the best in the world logo.
King Tempo is one example but there are others.
They are generally pretty easily recognised.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So do you not believe it is a Keilwerth?
There were many horns produced by Keilwerth that do not bear the Keilwerth logo or the best in the world logo.
King Tempo is one example but there are others.
They are generally pretty easily recognised.
I've no doubt its a Keilwerth. Just wondering if maybe the key was replaced or something, the stamp question was more out of curiosity of the history.
 

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I tend to believe that the lack of logo is or was a latter thing perhaps post 1960's.
But this is just an assumption on my part and may be completely untrue.
The new king series IV are the best of the bunch in my mind as they have modernish keywork as well as a great tone.
I had a Keilwerth the new king alto series IV a while ago which was a great horn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I tend to believe that the lack of logo is or was a latter thing perhaps post 1960's.
But this is just an assumption on my part and may be completely untrue.
The new king series IV are the best of the bunch in my mind as they have modernish keywork as well as a great tone.
I had a Keilwerth the new king alto series IV a while ago which was a great horn.
That would definitely make sense. Now I am going to scour the interwebs for more series IV (non-stencils) to compare. I didn't really think about that for whatever reason and now cant remember if the ones I were looking at were mid 60s or later (the ones that had the engraving on the key I mean).

I agree on the series IV. Despite what folks think and what they were markted as, they are definitely top notch for the price point. I don't really see a need for me personally to ever use anything else (i'm a rock and roll guy).
 

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I have bought and sold many Toneking and New King series IV both with and without rolled toneholes. Type IV has no lucite guard which it often has a lucite pants guard.

They were made when KeilwErth was producing really many horns for other brands. I currently have a baritone of this era without any name on it ( but unmistakably Keilwerth) but I have had also some with Van Engelen, Schenkelaars, and other names on it.

I personally prefer to buy the ones without rolled toneholes (unless they are the earlier type with lucite) because in the event that a tonhole has been pressed in by an unscrupulous repair man looking for a quick solution to a key not closing well, you can still level it by filing the tonehole (while leveling a rolled tonehole can’t be done by filing and is a more complex repair).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I have bought and sold many Toneking and New King series IV both with and without rolled toneholes. Type IV has no lucite guard which it often has a lucite pants guard.

They were made when KeilwErth was producing really many horns for other brands. I currently have a baritone of this era without any name on it ( but unmistakably Keilwerth) but I have had also some with Van Engelen, Schenkelaars, and other names on it.

I personally prefer to buy the ones without rolled toneholes (unless they are the earlier type with lucite) because in the event that a tonhole has been pressed in by an unscrupulous repair man looking for a quick solution to a key not closing well, you can still level it by filing the tonehole (while leveling a rolled tonehole can't be done by filing and is a more complex repair).
Thanks for your input! You guys helped confirm both the lucite keyguard thing (I suspected it never existed on this particular horn, but the seller said otherwise is the only reason I thought that), as well as the engraving on the G# key. I also read about the rolled tone holes, but I just really prefer the look and beefiness of them.
 

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rolling toneholes had turned at some point into an expensive solution for a problem that wasn’t there. Pads preservation and better closing.

It survived (and survives) only as a symbol of quality ( because it is more expensive to make) but many brands, which never had any rolled toneholes , still produced some of the best saxophones in the world. However, yes, it is a nice looking feature but ultimately all a tonehole has to do is to be closed by a key cup without leaks.

The Tonekings and New Kings IV are a simply engineered horn but they are very nice to play and are very robust though a touch unsophisticated. Enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
rolling toneholes had turned at some point into an expensive solution for a problem that wasn't there. Pads preservation and better closing.

It survived (and survives) only as a symbol of quality ( because it is more expensive to make) but many brands, which never had any rolled toneholes , still produced some of the best saxophones in the world. However, yes, it is a nice looking feature but ultimately all a tonehole has to do is to be closed by a key cup without leaks.

The Tonekings and New Kings IV are a simply engineered horn but they are very nice to play and are very robust though a touch unsophisticated. Enjoy.
Robust and a touch unsophisticated is exactly why I bought this particular horn. Playing classic rock & roll with 2 electric guitars, a bass, and a 12 string acoustic on stage with drums. I wanted something loud and to the point. Also, I don't have the money to buy anything more expensive. I am a drummer by trade. I play piano/synth in a rock band, and now adding saxophone for Springsteen covers to hop back and forth between keys and sax. So nothing too complicated for me on the horn yet :)
 

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tfarnsy,

Couldn't say it any better; its my mission with my new late 70s Couf Superba I. But I do find it sort of lacking in resistance or something different from other horn... does anyone experience that with KW/Coufs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
tfarnsy,

Couldn't say it any better; its my mission with my new late 70s Couf Superba I. But I do find it sort of lacking in resistance or something different from other horn... does anyone experience that with KW/Coufs?
I think that would be very common with the Coufs and KW's given they have rather large bores in comparison to others. That why I love 'em though. Huge sound w/ little resistance. What mouthpieces do you play? I don't personally have experience with too many different ones on these horns, but I guess you could try manipulating resistance with a smaller chambered mouthpiece?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Funny you link those threads, 2 of them I actually was reading after I commented :) What is your take on it then? Why are KWs (for the most part) consistent with loud robust sound with little resistance as compared to others? I mean, it all makes sense to me. I get the large bell thing being false and having no bearing, but it seems quite logical to me that a wider neck opening/mouthpiece chamber would be consistent with louder sound and not as much resistance... What is your personal opinion?
 
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