[megwenda]

OK, I have already mentioned this Silverplated 1960 Weltklang (age verified by the Musikinstrumentenmuseums Markneukirchen) when I discussed why it would have 26 toneholes and 36 keys, and we tried to work out what was meant by 'keys.

I have finally got round to repairing this (it had a dent caused when it dropped on the Eb keyguard, and the previous owner/repairer had tried to 'fix' it by unrolling part the rolled tonehole to raise it up to the level of the rest. I have repaired most of the dent, at least enough to get the tonehole level again, and the lip rolled back down to match the rest of the hole, so I decided to replace the springs (half were missing, and several were rusted) and repad it before going on so I could see what it sounds like.

While looking at it today, I attached it to the strap around my neck, and suddenly noticed that the bell was pointing WAY out to my left hand side. At first I thought that there was going to be a bend in the elbow, or else the elbow / bell had been removed and resoldered on at the wrong angle. As the offset already starts where the elbow joins on to the body, that was where I first looked.

I can find no indication of such a bend, and nor is there any indication that the elbow or bell have been resoldered!
The C and C# keyholes are round, and almost perfectly level (so much so that I don't even know if I need to become a RTH filer, or if I can just float the pads).
The keycups on both of them line up with the holes (and the indentations in the old pads were centered before I removed them).

So, have I got a bend, or did Weltklang maybe use a Dolnet body (I understand that the Dolnets from the 50's and 60's had an offset bell)?

The Sax hangs nicely around my neck, and feels comfortable and evenly balanced.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated
Dave

 

[JayeLID]

If the bell is off-kilter there'd be something strange about how the low B and Bb keys orient to the toneholes....either the keys would be bent somewhat to accommodate, or pads shimmed oddly, or the pads nowhere near centered on the holes.

In the absence of any of this, and in the absence of a sign that there is any sort of twist or imapction of bellbrace to the body tube or the back of the bell....it'd be safe to assume nothing is bent.

 

[megwenda]

If the bell is off-kilter there'd be something strange about how the low B and Bb keys orient to the toneholes....either the keys would be bent somewhat to accommodate, or pads shimmed oddly, or the pads nowhere near centered on the holes.

In the absence of any of this, and in the absence of a sign that there is any sort of twist or imapction of bellbrace to the body tube or the back of the bell....it'd be safe to assume nothing is bent.

Thanks for the input.
The B and Bb posts are mounted directly onto the bell itself, and the are controlled by sliding keys mounted on to the body. So, a bend will not affect the orientation of the key caps on the toneholes. I did check the alignment of the sliding key rods (ie when one presses the B key, the rod ends in a sliding piece which then moves the B key cap), and this works without any problems

 

[turf3]

Personally I'd unsolder that strap ring and scootch it around a bit.

My current Conn 10M had a bit of this syndrome and like yours it was clear from keycup alignment that it had always been that way. So I moved the ring.


If the keywork is designed for a particular orientation it could do odd things to hand position to have the body rotated.

 

[megwenda]

Personally I'd unsolder that strap ring and scootch it around a bit.

My current Conn 10M had a bit of this syndrome and like yours it was clear from keycup alignment that it had always been that way. So I moved the ring.

If the keywork is designed for a particular orientation it could do odd things to hand position to have the body rotated.

Not too sure, as the left thumb support (and octave key) are in line with the strap ring, and when my thumb is on the rest, my fingers fit comfortly on the left stack. Also, the pinky table seems in the right place.

As mentioned, the sax seems to lie comfortably, but time will tell once I have it all together again. Looks really wierd when I stand before the miror though.

Oh well, I have three tenors, and the plan was always to have one as main, one as backup, and one as a wall decoration in my man-cave

 

[1saxman]

The bell appears to be twisted to the player's left - notice the C# and bell tone holes are not in the same plane. Now I have no idea how this could be true because of the bell brace and bell keys but it sure looks that way. There are also some heavy dents on the back of the bell. I'd say chances are good that somebody who shouldn't have has been working on it.
Just going by the title I thought it was going to be about the 'turned' bell that I believe was a Selmer innovation for seated players, where the bell is actually turned to the right, and the tone holes are located to accommodate this. This horn has had the bell turned to the left, and apparently the bell key linkage can accommodate this. That alone is pretty strange.

 

[B Flat]

Isn’t this just an offset bell like many of the Dolnet horns had?
I had a Dolnet Royal Jazz Tenor with the same offset.
I read it was advantageous for marching band players or something.

 

[Hassles]

I've not known Weltklang's with anything like an off-set bell - unlike my MKX pictured.

 

[JayeLID]

It IS unusual for a Weltklang, I think.

But given that all other aspects appear 'normal' - relationship of pinky key armatures to bell key armatures (those pinky key armatures not giving the appearance of being 'bent' to compensate for a new position of the keycup armatures) no sign of any body damage at the bellbrace or bell lip, no sign of resolders to the bell ferrule - then this isn't from damage (btw on many models of horn the C# hole is not in the same plane as the bell holes, so that isn't a great indicator)......

There would be some sign of repaired or subtle damage if the bell took a knock that sent it way off-kilter. Besides the ones I previously mentioned, there might be a slight twist in the inner surface of the bow elbow, or the ferrule connection of bell to bow would be askew (i.e. the 'seam' inside would be crooked- you could see that by looking down the bell or thru the bell or C# toneholes).

Absent of any of this...it was likely just fabricated like that. Kinda cool, actually.

 

[megwenda]

@1saxman Actually there are no repaired dents on the back of the bell, That was just bad photography /lightning

As can be seen on the second photo there is a dent just above the bell brace bracket, but this has not been worked on

@jaylid I took a photo to show that the C# keycup was centered, and suddenly noticed that the tonehole had been worked on.. for about a quarter of its circumference, it had been unrolled to lift it up to meet the pad. Looks like I have more work to do on the toneholes than I first saw....

As the rest of the elbow doesn't look damaged, I wonder if this is not an indication of a twist which would explain the offset bell? However, I think a twist to the left would raise that part of the RTH??

Really strange!
I tried it today without a strap, just balancing it with my two thumbs on the thumbrests, and the mouthpiece in my mouth. It was perfectly balanced and felt "right", just looked "different" in the mirror. Reminds me of my Dolnet M70 alto universal from the looks.

 

[turf3]

I'd bet it's mostly a QC foul-up, but it might have been by intention.

 

[Reet McVouty]

How does it play? If it plays good leave it alone.

 

[megwenda]

How does it play? If it plays good leave it alone.

Good advise, but I am also in a catch 22 situation. I am just starting putting this all back together, need final checking of toneholes (and as I have seen the previous repairer wasnt above unrolling the RTH, so no idea what else I will find). At least the posts are all well soldered and straightened, and the keys all centered and parallel ( with the proviso I have to recheck the RTH to see if I missed any other problems there.
The pads and springs are mounted, but the pads will have to be floated, and then the key heights and regulation done, only then will I know if it plays well, and worthbspending time on

Oh well, I bought this one as a "practice piece", and am sure getting a lot of experience. It was sold as "in good condition", but at a very cheap price and marked as non playable for spare parts, so I wasnt expecting much.

Will let you all know how it goes

 

[xax]

I would get in touch with Helen through her website at Bassic-Sax...She's the guru of vintage German horns and probly could tell you what's up with this unit.

One thing I did notice (hard to be certain from a foto) is that the body end of the bell brace looks like it could be a bit buggered or re-soldered or...?
This horn seems bit of an anomaly because the logo is of the early style and it has rolled tone holes but sheet metal guards.
Might be able to tell more about it with views of the front. FYI, the earliest Weltklangs are "upgraded" GH Hullers...

 

[megwenda]

I would get in touch with Helen through her website at Bassic-Sax...She's the guru of vintage German horns and probly could tell you what's up with this unit.

One thing I did notice (hard to be certain from a foto) is that the body end of the bell brace looks like it could be a bit buggered or re-soldered or...?
This horn seems bit of an anomaly because the logo is of the early style and it has rolled tone holes but sheet metal guards.
Might be able to tell more about it with views of the front. FYI, the earliest Weltklangs are "upgraded" GH Hullers...

I have tried to get through to Helen several times, both via her site, and a pm on this site, but never got a reply... I think she is very busy.

Based on the serial number the very helpful team at Musikinstrumentenmuseums Markneukirchen identified this a December 1960 model 98 Weltkpang Tenor. I think I need to post a question on their site as well.

There is damage where the body joins the elbow (it appeared to have been dropped on the Eb keyguard, which caused a dent there, however there is no sign of soldering or twist

 

[megwenda]

I stripped the keys off, and took a closer look. Feeling inside the body where the bell brace goes, there is a very slight bump indicating at sometime the bell was pressed against the body. But it is so slight, I dont think it is the cause of this problem

So, I unsoldered the bell brace from the body, and then very gingerly tried to twist the bell to the right. After the slightest twist I had to stop.
The lower C tonehole stared going egg shaped, and the south east side of the C# started going even lower (remember it had been unrolled because it was already too low)

So, I twisted it back again, and fortunately both toneholes returned to their positions. Seems it is not twisted to the left after all, abd tgat is its natural position.

I decided to give it up for the day, and went and had a beer or two. Tomorrow is another day

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

I have a 1961 Welklang Tenor that shows in the same neck bell twist as yours. I posted a few weeks ago when I received the horn about mine. What thoughts or ideas did you end up with?

Personally I do not feel uncomfortable playing the horn at all. I adjust the neck where my hands and wrists are most ergonomic and play it.

 

[megwenda]

I have a 1961 Welklang Tenor that shows in the same neck bell twist as yours. I posted a few weeks ago when I received the horn about mine. What thoughts or ideas did you end up with?

Personally I do not feel uncomfortable playing the horn at all. I adjust the neck where my hands and wrists are most ergonomic and play it.

To tell the truth, I havent made too much progress with this.... been playing too much golf so haven't had time to complete the repairs. Key height still not perfect, regulation not to my satisfaction.

But, the sax plays well and has a very good (and loud) sound. I dont notice the 'offset' bell while playing, and it sits comfortably in my hands, so I reckon that it was just made like this.. you having the same problem/feature seems to confirm this, thanks for letting me know your experience

I think the sound on this is probably better than my Dolnet, although I prefer the Dolnet because I have much more control over the volume, and I like playing softly.

 

[megwenda]

I have a 1961 Welklang Tenor that shows in the same neck bell twist as yours. I posted a few weeks ago when I received the horn about mine. What thoughts or ideas did you end up with?

Personally I do not feel uncomfortable playing the horn at all. I adjust the neck where my hands and wrists are most ergonomic and play it.

Brian,

Due to spending too much time on golf, I have not been reading the forum posts too regularily. I did notice yours when it first started, but it wasn't until several posts later that you mentioned it was a Weltklang, so I missed it. Also, your posts implied it was a neck position problem, and I feel it is actually a bell 'problem'

When I take my two Weltklands (1961 and 1983) and look at them from the back, and line them up so toneholes (ie side Bb and C, Low Eb etc), and then look at the alignment, I see both saxes are the same EXCEPTING for a) the bell (which on the 1961 points more to the left as viewed from the back), and b) the sling ring (where the neck strap is attached), which is also more to the left (and this combination of bell pointing to the left, and the sax hanging to the left) exaggerates the impression when seen from the front

I just quickly fashioned a quick adapter which allowed me to attach the sling ring more to the right (so I could test without actually resoldering the neck ring). In this position the bell did appear to be more 'normal', however the body of the sax was now slightly twisted, and in this position all the finger positions (cup keys and octave keys) felt wrong and I had to have my hands 'twisted', and the sax no longer 'sat' correctly, so I feel confident that the sling strap is in the correct position

As you also mention in your post, despite this apparent twist, the sax feels very ergonomically balanced, and the only effect for me is more of a visual one, the bell points more to the left than one would expect (like the Dolnet M70's, although maybe not quite so radical)

So, for what ever reason, it appears that these two (and maybe others) Weltklangs were made with the bell pointing a bit to the left.

 

[turf3]

It has to do with the rotational alignment of the bow to the main body tube when soldered.

The other typical "offset" bell configuration (Selmers, Keilwerths) is to rotate the bell where it's soldered to the bow, so it points outward.

If the bell key pads are centered on the tone holes and there's no evidence of major bending of key arms to adapt, the horn was made that way. No idea why some manufacturers align things that way and others don't.