[Figaro]

I started this project in the Martin forum and decided to post here to document the process of doing a complete overhaul.

I've decided to strip it of the poorly done re-lacquer it had done, remove a few dents then do some key straightening and key cup leveling. Once all that is done a deep cleaning and polish, re-lacquer and assembly and regulation. Should be a worthwhile project with an opportunity to learn more and perhaps acquire more tools and skills.

Previous owner started to do a re-pad with Roopads but didn't do and inherent adjustment of the keys beforehand.

This is its current condition on my bench.

View attachment 262910

 

[frozen fingers]

Very cool! Keep posting pics as you go along - fun to see the progress.

 

[paulwl]

Just keep in mind: you may be *lowering* the value if you relacquer. You might be better off leaving it bare, even tho its already a relac.

 

[Figaro]

Understood. The real value of the instrument for me lies in its ability to be playable. I'm sure it will be worth far more than I paid for it when it's done.

 

[PigSquealer]

I started this project in the Martin forum
Previous owner started to do a re-pad with Roopads but didn't do and inherent adjustment of the keys beforehand.

This is its current condition on my bench.

I know on the other thread you commented about the spuds in the key cups. It looks like the installed pads are convex from the spud being in the way. Or did the PO use pads that were too big and they are bulging? Regardless I don't think I would hack those things off too quickly. Maybe something of unique value. Have a name yet? Maybe something like, Cousin It.

Just keep in mind: you may be *lowering* the value if you relacquer. You might be better off leaving it bare, even tho its already a relac.

When you get a chance read the other thread. This was previously lacquered or some thing poorly. Considering this fact I think he's going to improve the condition.

 

[Figaro]

I know on the other thread you commented about the spuds in the key cups. It looks like the installed pads are convex from the spud being in the way. Or did the PO use pads that were too big and they are bulging? Regardless I don't think I would hack those things off too quickly. Maybe something of unique value. Have a name yet? Maybe something like, Cousin It.

Lot's of shellac was applied to the pads. Too much in fact. All pads except one have that spud.

After a bit of research I found a post on Matt Stohrer's website with info that explains what these are. Look at this Martin Soprano "Neverleak" pad setup. http://www.stohrermusic.com/2016/11/1927-martin-handcraft-soprano-saxophone-gold-plate/

This horn did indeed have the "Neverleak" pads and someone drilled off the domed attachment point and all that's left is what you see in the key cup. That's why they look like the tip of a drill bit. This set of Roopads have resonators. Original pads had none. Maybe I'll remove the resonators on the set I have before installing. I might also try to remove a bit more of that spud with a Dremel and a carbide bit. See this post for more on the "Neverleak" setup: https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?194810-Martin-Handcraft-Neverleak-pads

This will be an interesting re-pad process. I need to get most of the shellac off the pads before I start any of that. Probably try to just chip it away carefully. Heating and scraping would be messy and stringy I'm sure.

Her name is Lilah. Arabic, Hebrew origin meaning night. Inspired by one of my Favorite Morphine albums and title track, The Night.

 

[saxcop]

If the spud was completely taken down flat, you could heat the shellac and flatten it on a metal block. I use a heat gun. I hold it with some needle nose pliers and flatten the shellac down. Just like this.

 

[Figaro]

Good tip. I did that with the Holton pads. Works well to level it all out.

However, the amount of shellac on these pads is just to much. Even if I level it out it will squish out around the edges when I set they had in the cup. Better to try to remove some and recycle it.

 

[JayeLID]

What is your intention as far as methodology of relacquering ? Because, that is an art, really.

The 'spray it with a can' methodology...even when done very well....will look....OK...for a few months but after that it becomes very dicey where the aesthetics are gonna go.

I say this, respectfully, only because you have removed a badly-done relacquer....so don't replace it with a badly-done relacquer (no judgment on you abilities, mind you...just the methodology of a pro shop relacquering operation is far different than most DIY options).

Personally.....I'd leave it bare brass....or...do a faux patina finish, the kind of system which actually has a 'sealer' as part of the finish process (I can recommend a product for that). And keep in mind, it need not necessarily be the 'mottled brown' sort of coloration in the end...there are a lotta choices as far as final hue if you use the right products (which would NOT be the hardware-store variety faux finishes).

 

[JayeLID]

Also...trying to remove existing shellac from pads ? Then re-install/refloat successfully ?

Probably easier to just order new pads and repad it from scratch.

Yes a dremel can grind the nubs flat in the keycups.

 

[Brujo]

...
Personally.....I'd leave it bare brass....or...do a faux patina finish, the kind of system which actually has a 'sealer' as part of the finish process (I can recommend a product for that). And keep in mind, it need not necessarily be the 'mottled brown' sort of coloration in the end...there are a lotta choices as far as final hue if you use the right products (which would NOT be the hardware-store variety faux finishes).

Not wanting to hijack this very interesting thread but I'd be interested in your recommendation for that finish please.

Figaro, thanks for posting this, and keep showing us how it's going. Really great stuff.

 

[Figaro]

What is your intention as far as methodology of relacquering ? Because, that is an art, really.

The 'spray it with a can' methodology...even when done very well....will look....OK...for a few months but after that it becomes very dicey where the aesthetics are gonna go.

I say this, respectfully, only because you have removed a badly-done relacquer....so don't replace it with a badly-done relacquer (no judgment on you abilities, mind you...just the methodology of a pro shop relacquering operation is far different than most DIY options).

Personally.....I'd leave it bare brass....or...do a faux patina finish, the kind of system which actually has a 'sealer' as part of the finish process (I can recommend a product for that). And keep in mind, it need not necessarily be the 'mottled brown' sort of coloration in the end...there are a lotta choices as far as final hue if you use the right products (which would NOT be the hardware-store variety faux finishes).

You know, Id rather really just leave it bare brass and protect it with something. I'm not a fan of lacquer at all. That's why I like silver plated instruments like the Holton alto and my Holton trumpet. Also not really looking forward to all the work, getting it in a paint booth (I have access to a good auto body shop paint booth) buying good lacquer etc. I'd love a recommend of that product please. The stripping and polishing (by hand mind you) part I have to problem with.

I tried heating and removing the shellac on one pad with good success. A bit of heat gun on the back side then a light scrape with an artists pallet knife worked very nicely and the pad survived the process unscathed.

As far as the resonators go, It seems that a few pads have resonators that are very close to the tone hole chimney. One in fact was replaced with a non resonator pad because it wouldn't fit. I tried removing the resonator from that pad no proble. Simple task of driling out a rivet, remove the resonator and replacing the rivet with a new one. I have some on hand along with the arbor to install them. If I end up getting a whole new set of Roopads so be it but I think I can pull it off on all the pads.

 

[Figaro]

Got some work done today. Removed the shellac from the pads and melted it into a usable stick.

Applied some spray on stripper to all the parts, and yes, I was careful when I laid it down on bare cement.

After letting things soak for about 15 minutes I gave all of it a good rinse and scrub with a bristle brush under hot water. It removed about 98% of the lacquer. I'll go over everything now with a rag soaked with acetone to remove and remaining lacquer.

 

[PigSquealer]

Yikes! Amber shellac on white pads. That’s a scary mixture. I’m not positive you will have to do your own research. I think nitrocellulose lacquer is the product used to lacquer saxophones. I know it is on guitars. You can use a rattle can. Getting the material to lay smoothly is a art. I’ve had success with heating the can in hot water. It’s like thinning the lacquer. I used this technique clear coating a motorcycle fuel tank. Although I used straight lacquer.
I am unsure if having some pads with resonators and some without affects the tuning.
A Q-tip with a light smear of oil on the springs will prevent rusting. Rinse before polishing or you get another type mess.
Project is looking good.

 

[Hornlip]

What kind of spray-on stripper did you use?

 

[PigSquealer]

Whatever you heat with be careful. I use a traditional alcohol burner. You should be able to heat & flatten without loss of pads.
I use clear shellac, A needle and flat granite stone. Fill the pad about 2/3 of diameter. Place hot side on stone and press gently but quickly flat. Give it a slight rotation too. Pad +/- .030 layer of shellac. NO bubbles or rework pad again. For me that fills the cup with pad protruding about 1mm when installed.

 

[Figaro]

I have a solder re-work heat gun with adjustable heat and air flow. It works great for this. I used my bench anvil to flatten and cool the shellac on the Holton project. Might have to try some clear shellac.
What horn is this you're working on?

 

[Figaro]

What kind of spray-on stripper did you use?

This stuff. $12.99 a can.

 

[JayeLID]

You know, Id rather really just leave it bare brass and protect it with something. I'm not a fan of lacquer at all. That's why I like silver plated instruments like the Holton alto and my Holton trumpet. Also not really looking forward to all the work, getting it in a paint booth (I have access to a good auto body shop paint booth) buying good lacquer etc. I'd love a recommend of that product please. The stripping and polishing (by hand mind you) part I have to problem with.

I tried heating and removing the shellac on one pad with good success. A bit of heat gun on the back side then a light scrape with an artists pallet knife worked very nicely and the pad survived the process unscathed.

As far as the resonators go, It seems that a few pads have resonators that are very close to the tone hole chimney. One in fact was replaced with a non resonator pad because it wouldn't fit. I tried removing the resonator from that pad no proble. Simple task of driling out a rivet, remove the resonator and replacing the rivet with a new one. I have some on hand along with the arbor to install them. If I end up getting a whole new set of Roopads so be it but I think I can pull it off on all the pads.

FWIW - you don't have to go to such bother on lacq removal....it boils off in boiling water. Martin lacq of that era comes off relatively easily with boiling water. No need to put chemicals or an open flame to the lacq.....

I have PM'ed you info on faux finishes....(I think, PM system was acting funkily...if you didn't get is ...ask me again)

You COULD just leave her bare brass as well, as you said was an option. It's a bit of a roll of the dice because bare brass, even when given some sort of finishing wax or something, will patina differently depending upon your local climate, where the horn is kept (in case, out of case, etc)....but IMHO still better than a relacquer.

 

[StuartSax]

I found the most pleasing finish for a relacquered sax is to strip the bell, leaving the 'relac' in the bell and polishing out any peeling lacquer in the body. Whether you go further than the bell is also cool, leaving the keys with lacquer. I think the contrast is hip. Then, just keep it clean and/or oiled or waxed.

Here's the 142xxx Handcraft done up that way. I think there's a before and after. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z_3HgwuNDz2EvnENrPkL5svNVmg6_c3W