[oberlin]

Hi,

I've been getting back into playing the bari (mostly) and tenor (a little), after not playing any music for 20 years. I've been renting a reasonably nice, Taiwanese-made low-A bari for some time for a little less than CAD $70 / month. Having a blast, though having some trouble with intonation (that's for another post).

I've been looking around to see whether I can afford to buy my own bari. A 1920s Buescher TT has come up that might be available, with a price somewhere between $1000 and $1500 Canadian. I'd have to buy it sight unseen, so I'd try have a tech check it out before buying. Just wondering if anyone has any advice on what to look out for, or anything that I haven't considered. I'm not sure what year it is exactly - I know that the ones from the later 20s had some improvements like the G# key and the front F. Apparently it was repadded somewhat recently.

If a tech gives it the green light and it looks good, any other pitfalls I might want to watch out for? Having recently been able to compare a 70s King 615 with a more modern horn, I've come to understand the differences in ergonomics that different horns have - I find the King slower and more difficult to play - would a 1920s horn be ergonomically disappointing? How about intonation - as someone just getting back into the sax, is this a horn I'd struggle to keep playing in tune?

Any thoughts appreciated!

 

[Grumps]

A 1920s Buescher TT has come up that might be available, with a price somewhere between $1000 and $1500 Canadian.

Way overpriced for a quirky horn in very little demand. Even if it were an Aristocrat or a 400, I'd only pay the bottom of that price range if it was in absolutely top playing condition.

 

[oberlin]

Thanks! Just for reference, the range would be about $750-$1100 USD (I'm in Canada).

 

[Grumps]

Yeah, I figured it would come in a bit lower, but not that much. Thanks for the clarification. $750 for a TT is still way too much, unless maybe it was near mint or gold plated. You'll see 400's go for less than that on Ebay. Vintage American baritone saxophones keyed down to low Bb are just not in demand; other than certain Conns. This doesn't mean you can't try to haggle, if you had the horn in your hands and dug it.

 

[oberlin]

Interesting, thanks. I'll keep watching ebay. Maybe it's because I'm on ebay.ca instead of ebay.com, but I don't know if I've ever seen a bari, unless it was terribly beat up, on ebay for that price. Maybe I just need to watch more closely...

 

[oberlin]

Update, FWIW: just got some photos. Looks like it's a 1920 or 1921, from the serial number, so it's keyed to high Eb, and has the button-style G#, which isn't what I was hoping for. Looks to be in pretty good shape generally, though there are some dents below the bell key on one side. Silver plated. Pads look pretty new, as far as I can tell from a few photos.

Re: ebay, I had a look at ebay.com. All the Buescher baris I saw are in the $2000-$3000 USD range (like: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bu...723927?hash=item3b42333a17:g:SNkAAOSw55peSFjl), everything under $1000 was "parts only". Do sub-$1000 deals on these come up once in a while?

 

[turf3]

I would not invest in a Buescher keyed only to Eb unless you are a very experienced baritone player and want it for some specialized purpose, or you expect only to play it occasionally in non-written music applications.

The Buescher 400/Bundy/Selmer USA baritones come up for sale pretty often priced under $1000 and claimed to be playable (take that with a block of salt). Older ones will have better build quality. Note that "Bundy" and "Selmer USA" are the same design, so look under those brand names as well.

Frankly if you are a young player and expect to be doing a lot of big band work playing newer arrangements, I would recommend just going with the low A. Once you get a command of the instrument, you can work with mouthpiece selection to improve the tone quality of the newer horns to get closer to the classic Conn/King/Buescher baritone sound, but you'll have that note.

Old farts like me can get away with playing a low Bb on the grounds of sound quality and general curmudgeon-hood, but arrangers writing after about 1970 have expected the low A to be there and the lines are written for it. That said, I've been doing big band work in a variety of setttings on baritone as my primary instrument for over 40 years (playing a low Bb) and I haven't come upon a chart where there wasn't a workaround to the low A. So I haven't invested in a low A horn yet; but if I were starting over from scratch that's probably what I'd do.

My own opinion, not shared by all, is that if you want to be a full service baritone player you need a horn with the front F key as well, that's the gateway to altissimo as well as a lot of technical patterns up in the third octave.

 

[Grumps]

Do an advanced search on ebay and you can limit results to "completed auctions". Anything in green sold... and you'll see a lot that doesn't sell. Like the one you linked to above. You still have to be careful in judging horns that seem to sell for crazy money, and instead follow the trends. Sometimes it's a mouthpiece that can inspire increased bids.

Now with all that said, I do have an old Conn bari that's only keyed up to Eb3, and only Bb down low. Great sound, but it's best for me as a bar horn, or to play with a combo. Not ideal for modern stage band charts or other ensemble work. But any horn you buy on ebay, unless it's from a known dealer, you have to assume will need a complete overhaul despite what any seller tells you.

 

[lydian]

I agree with others. Vintage horns are beautiful and have a great sound. But they're not very practical. The bari player in my big band has a 20's vintage TT keyed Bb to Eb and is always running into trouble on our charts. He has to stick something in the bell to get low A, and it's very difficult to get even high E and F consistently, and the fingerings for those are almost impossible on fast runs.

If you ever intend to play in a band, try to find a modern horn keyed A to F at least. Some say low A horns lack the sound of low Bb horns. That has not been my experience. I don't think any listener could tell if I'm playing a low A horn or low Bb horn.

99.9% of the intonation problems I see posted here are the player, not the horn. So whatever you end up with, just get to know the horn and practice for at least a couple of months before you start blaming the horn. Obviously you need a tech to get the horn into playing condition first, assuming you can't do it yourself.

 

[oberlin]

Thanks, everybody. Sounds like there are much better deals to be had with some patience. I'm not at a point where I need to move up from the rental horn that im playing now, so I'll keep my eyes peeled, but otherwise keep working with this horn. I appreciate all the insight everyone has shared!