[Stoopalini]

Great tip on the shellac strings, thanks!

I think what I'll do is continue down the path I'm on, making note of any other pads which may need something thicker, if any. I'm sure I'll need to order a few more things, and when I do, I can get one (or more) soft feel thick pads if I decide to swap it out.

I won't do any bending until I get to the adjustment and regulation portion, I was just thinking ahead wondering if using a thinner pad than what was in there before would cause more headache down the road. For now, I'll just continue setting the pads in though.

I was able to do 3 more today with no issues ... only 21 more to go!

 

[lostcircuits]

Great tip on the shellac strings, thanks!

I think what I'll do is continue down the path I'm on, making note of any other pads which may need something thicker, if any. I'm sure I'll need to order a few more things, and when I do, I can get one (or more) soft feel thick pads if I decide to swap it out.

I won't do any bending until I get to the adjustment and regulation portion, I was just thinking ahead wondering if using a thinner pad than what was in there before would cause more headache down the road. For now, I'll just continue setting the pads in though.

I was able to do 3 more today with no issues ... only 21 more to go!

I hope you did not start on the wrong end, you need to go top to bottom, not bottom's up
Not that it matters, at least not for the repad. But for the regulation it is crucial that you start at the upper stack, otherwise you'll be chasing your own tail around the sun and moon!

 

[PigSquealer]

Great tip on the shellac strings, thanks!

I think what I'll do is continue down the path I'm on, making note of any other pads which may need something thicker, if any. I'm sure I'll need to order a few more things, and when I do, I can get one (or more) soft feel thick pads if I decide to swap it out.

I won't do any bending until I get to the adjustment and regulation portion, I was just thinking ahead wondering if using a thinner pad than what was in there before would cause more headache down the road. For now, I'll just continue setting the pads in though.

I was able to do 3 more today with no issues ... only 21 more to go!

Here’s some food for thought. Just remember the relationship between pad protrusion and regulation effects.

FF to 2:40

 

[Stoopalini]

Na, I haven't started any reassembly or regulation work yet; just pad seating/sealing at this point. When I'm done padding I'll have a stripped down horn again, and at that point, I'll start the assembly in whatever order makes sense for regulation. I'll definitely be looking for guidance on that order, but now know the upper stack should be 1st

I chose this process so I can do a final wipe/polish of each part and put valve oil on the components during the final assembly step. Meaning, I won't be taking pieces off and on repeatedly after the final polish and oil.

Thanks for the video ... that's actually one of the 1st ones I watched a few weeks back when I started researching replacement pads. I found it very helpful in how he describes the impact to the angle of attack from different pad thicknesses. What he doesn't mention is how it also impacts length of travel of the components being actuated to move the key cup, and how changes in that length of travel have a knock-down effect on the thickness of regulating components as well as the alignment of touch pieces.

It's that concept of knock-down effects which I came to realize during my work on the bell key cup with the shim. So when I finally get to to the point of regulating the pieces which operate that key cup on the bell, I can decide at that point if it's worth replacing the pad with a thicker one, or adjusting the shim setup on it, or compensating for it with regulation.

Making progress, slowly but surely!

 

[Qalina]

you should absolutely try and play it yourself. Woodwinds are the easiest blow of all wind instruments. Bigger saxes are move forgiving re intonation. If your son complains-threaten to put him up for adoption or start making his own living by busking 🤪

 

[Stoopalini]

Haha, my son actually wants me to learn, so he definitely won't complain. He asks me every 2 or 3 days if I've decided to learn yet ... Yesterday, I told him when this horn is all back together, he can show me a few things so I can play it

Today I seated pads into all the upper stack cups, and man, I really think I should have used thicker pads for these. I'm having to pull them out of the cup pretty far, and angled, to get the geometry to line up. On one cup (the one furthest toward the lower stack side) I pulled the pad out as much as I felt comfortable and it was still a problem. I tried angling it as drastic as I did the bell cup, but even like that, I had to push the touch piece so far to get the pad to make contact that all the other cups on the stack started to rotate.

So I grabbed some cardboard and made a 2mm full circle shim, and stuck it in there. I then shellaced the pad all the way in ... so the pad reveal is even all the way around and its seated all the way back against the shim. After doing that, the pad sealed perfectly without even having to float it, and the travel of the touch piece wasn't so far it caused anything else on the stack to move. This is the only time I've stuck a pad into a cup, mounted the cup onto the horn, and didn't have to float it. It's making me wonder if I should order thick pads for the upper stack?

The lower stack pads are all sealing nicely right now just being dry fit. It seems this horn definitely had different thickness pads on the upper stack vs. the lower stack.

 

[PigSquealer]

You’re missing the purpose of a dry fit. Pad height. Fuzz of light at the heel is OK. .030 is not. You’re adding a 2mm thick shim ?
It’s too late to return the set. You’ve already installed some.

 

[Stoopalini]

Ya, a 2mm shim made the pad level with the cup and level with the chimney. Using the dry fit to check pad height is what I originally thought, but when I posted this pic of a gap with the pad dry fitted into the cup (post # 141), I got feedback which made me think it was ok, and the shellac would make up the difference

But now that I'm further along and have done a few pads, I definitely would have ordered thicker pads for these knowing what I know now.

I didn't order a set from MM, but ordered a bunch of individual pads to make up my own set. I think I may still order some thick pads for the upper stack, as well as that bell key, though ... not sure yet.

I did the lower stack today, and it was a breeze! I didn't even have to remove the cups as the pads sealed perfectly just being dry fit. So I filled the back of the pad with shellac (the inside circle, where the material wrap over the edge leaves a depression in the center), and then inserted the pad into the cup and heated it to float it. This worked perfectly ... no troubles sealing, no monkeying with the pad using the pin vice ... everything just dropped in parallel (both cup and chimney) and perfectly sealed which was a HUGE difference from how the front stack went.

It seems this probably had 4mm on the lower stack and maybe 5mm on the upper? I think I read somewhere that some horns from the 20's were set up this way.

 

[PigSquealer]

Well at least you got some relief on the lower stack. You’re learning the difference now.
A thicker set there would have been miserable too.
Upper stack has smaller pads = less forgiving. Better tad thin than fuzz thick.
I’m curious if you measure checked thickness of the set ? That bell pad should not have been that far off. I went back and looked at post #141. Yep you asked the right question. Pad was to thin, 3.6mm ? Was the right time to add shim and check total thickness for best fit, sorry about that.

 

[Stoopalini]

No problem at all, I really appreciate you and everyone else's help in tackling this project. I'm bound to make mistakes along the way and I'm ok with it. Especially considering how things can be misunderstood on message forums like this. I'm in no rush and can take my time. If I have to redo things along the way to have a better outcome, I'm good with it. When I'm done here, I'd like the sax to be consistent and solid for years to come

Just for clarity, I used a half-circle 0.5mm thick shim on the bell cup which I asked about in post 141.

It's one of the cups in the upper stack which I used a full-circle 2mm thick shim. All of the upper stack pads had to be pulled out of the cups quite a bit to get things to seal up.

I reinstalled the upper stack this morning, so I could take a short video and show you. Do you think it's worth ordering thicker pads for the upper stack and replacing all of these; or should I just leave well enough alone?

 

[Stoopalini]

Today I took off the two cups on the bow, as these are the last two I have left to install pads into. The chimney and tone hole on this one was particularly corroded

I imagine this particular tone hole probably sees a lot more moisture than most, and maybe that's the reason it is in worse shape than the others?

I've been using some MM 2400 grit micromesh strips to clean up the chimney walls, as well as going very lightly around the rolled tone hole edge just to knock off any raised corrosion pieces and smooth them to the touch. Sort of "dressing" the hole without really sanding it.

Here is how this one on the bow turned out. It's smooth to the touch now, with no more gritty feeling when I run my finger over the tone hole or the chimney wall but still discolored; which I think is fine.

All the other chimney walls and tone hole edges cleaned up much better ... here's an example:

Just more progress, one step at a time!

I ordered some 320 and 400 grit sandpaper, some detail paint brushes (for the contact cement and cork) and a good set of tweezers, which will all be delivered tomorrow in preparation for the cork work. I also have some Simichrome on the way too, just to give it a decent polishing before I reassemble everything. I'll be careful not to get any Simichrome on the pads ... probably would have been a better idea to have polished the key cups prior to installing the pads now that I think about it ...

I figure I'll get these last two pads installed, finish cleaning up the chimneys and tone holes, then do a light polish on it, and reassemble ... then on to adjust and regulate

 

[Stoopalini]

Here's another example of a chimney/tone hole before and after using the MM Micromesh.

Before:

After:

Is there anything I should be putting on the finish after doing this, to deter corrosion in the future? I assume the inside of the sax has the same nickel plate finish as the outside, just without the polishing ... is that correct?

 

[PigSquealer]

Lots going on today!
if the upper stack is set, sealing, in regulation range and the pad is still well below the rim of the cup. I would leave it alone. proceed to finish. If something doesn’t work out you can always redo it. At least that way you will have answers from here to the end. More information to work with from experience. The video was helpful but blurry. Be attentive to the G. The height on that will greatly affect regulating the octave system. You’re grasping what’s going on here. So don’t make any bend moves on that system when you get to that point. Hopefully you have some pictures of that octave mechanism area showing the cork thickness. Or notes. You’re going to need help getting the area sorted.
Oddly the protrusion looks excessive considering you had Conn Rezo pads in before. This is where pre-disassembly pictures would answer questions. Something to compare the pad protrusion visually or by measurement notes. Thickness measurements notes of the pads as removed. It takes a while to learn these things before you go without notes.

On the cleaning of the last tone hole chimneys. Are you just now removing those keys? I would have stripped everything down and tossed the entire unit and a bathtub of warm water and Dawn dish soap. Yes the inside should be plated. Yes it’s normal to have corrosion around any of the areas where pads are always closed. This is why a sax should be swabbed out after playing. Key leaves are also a good accessory, holding the keys open for drying ventilation.
I’m not overly fond of using sandpaper for this application. Using scotch bright is the worst. That will permanently scratch. Like cleaning this type of residue from chrome plating I prefer steel wool. I have a stock of different grades, medium fine to extra fine. Just don’t use it indoors. The steel fiber dust will rust ! After using it blow everything off well. Compressed air or otherwise.

Looking good !👍

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini Fwiw I love Simichrome. It’s a great cleaner but as a long-term preservative for your condition don’t bank on it. I would apply a little spot on the workbench. Put a dab on a Q-tip and smear it around the key extremely carefully. It contains ammonia. Leather does not like ammonia. It will leave a permanent stain.

 

[skeller047]

I’m following this thread with great interest. @Stoopalini I watched that video of the upper stack, and I have a couple comments. First, there are a couple pads with hairline slivers of light showing, one with a real leak (you commented on that one), and a couple that seal well. The G key, the one you put the shim into, isn’t sealing completely. These hairline leaks end up causing resistance when playing.

Secondly, the touch piece on the G key seems low. This would cause the issue that made you pit the shims in in the first place. I would think that could be bent up, but those kinds of bends are hard to do, as you can easily distort the hinge tubes.

Finally, I agree with @PigSquealer that the pads look like they stick out of the cups a bit too much. This is hard to understand, and it helps to have a real understanding of how it feels when playing and how these keys work together.

I think you are doing a great job. Keep posting please!

 

[Stoopalini]

@PigSquealer I'm not removing these keys for the 1st time, just after reassembling everything for the dry fit. These are the last 2 keys to come back off from the dry fitting.

When I started this journey, I filled a spray bottle with dish soap and water, and used that to hand wash everything using automotive detailing cloths. I never submerged the entire thing, but did get it all pretty clean. I even ran a soapy water soaked rag through the inside, from one end to the other. This corrosion (or whatever it is) on the chimney walls would not come off no matter how much I scrubbed it. I even tried using penetrating oil and zippo fluid on it. So I figured some light sanding with the 2400 grit micromesh wouldn't hurt the chimney walls, since they aren't polished.

For clarity, I'm not using the micromesh on the outside, just the inside. For the outer, polished, surface, I'll give the Simichrome a shot along with the jewelers polishing cloth. Whatever that does to it, I'll be fine with. I'm not looking for a restorative finish or anything, just wanted to knock down the built up crud which was present.

Thanks for the tips on the Simichome .. I'm hoping to give it a go tomorrow.

Thanks @skeller047, I appreciate the feedback from the video. One thing to note is my leak light is a really long strip of LED lights, which spans the entire horn. So when I'm checking for leaks, sometimes light from a neighboring tone hole will reflect on the rolled edge of the one I'mm seating, and make it look like it's leaking. In the video, I tried to close the neighboring cups when this happened, but not sure if I was successful. In either case, I appreciate you having a look and I'll definitely give them all a very close inspection when I get ready to do the regulation.

When I get to that point, I'll take a better video of the upper stack and post it up for feedback. Since I'm not a sax player, I don't really know how the touch pieces are all supposed to align and feel.

Thanks again for the input!

 

[Stoopalini]

Hmm, what do you guys make of this, an old repair job maybe?

Looking at it from the outside and the top, you can’t see it. The top of the tone hole is smooth as well, so I don’t think it will leak.

looks like maybe it got dented, and was filled with solder or something?

on another note, the Simichrome arrived today so I gave it a try. I did one side, from the bell, around the bow, past the lower stack. It’s working great! It removes the gritty feel and makes the finish nice and smooth elps to hide the corrosion going on. It’ll look great from 10ft away 😊

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini ok all good. I have a better understanding now. I’ve seen some painful cleaning jobs. As long as the inside is clean you’re good. A icky tube on the inside will make your sax & pads reek.
You got me good on those last two keys

Simichrome is great product. Final cleanup detailing can be done with a small brush like you ordered for the contact cement. Make sure to run a pipe cleaner through all the post holes and threads. Dry is ok. Lighter fluid may remove any of the preservative ?

I see exactly what @skeller047 is describing in the apparent leaks. Had to go back and look at the video again. Looks like reflections to me. Light pollution can be an issue. This is why most technicians have more than one leak light. Sometimes just one lightbulb and sometimes a strip.
The low G touch @skeller047 mentions may be a illusion. Yes it does look low. It appears you have the spring hooked on the octave mechanism lever up top on the stack. That could be giving you the false impression the key is lower. Also without cork on the stack feet @ back bar. Those could be higher at the moment. Just a guess observation.

 

[PigSquealer]

That patch on the tone hole could be factory or technician repair.
As long as it‘s solid leave it alone. If it’s solder (lead/tin) super glue will not stick.

 

[Mark Fleming]

When you have a rolled tone hole that doesn't appear level, and you don't want to level it, you can create a "bent" pad to fit it without using a shim. You will need a needle and the ability to poke it into the side of the pad right where the pad doesn't seal. Put your leak light in place and have plenty of shellac on the pad. Heat the cup, close the pad, and use the needle to pull the pad down right where you see the light. You might need to let up on the cup and tap it a little. Hold everything in place while the shellac cools. What you have done is effectively warp the pad to fit the uneven tone hole. Ignore those who worry about whether there is now a bubble of air behind the pad. Yes, there is. Just like every other pad. It is the ability of the surface to seal, not what's behind the pad.