[PigSquealer]

Keep in mind you’re working on a vintage sax. This diagram for alto and tenor does not show the forked Eb.

The side F# Touch is usually in the same vicinity. Although the mechanism to the actual tone hole / key cup can be in different areas.

 

[Stoopalini]

Thanks @PigSquealer , great info as usual!

I measured the tone holes based on a comment earlier, where it was mentioned I should watch for resonator fitment in the tone holes. So if I go with soft feel pads with flat resonators, I should make sure the resonators are sized where they won't interfere with the tone hole rims. I didn't get a chance to call MM yet, but was planning to ask them about this as well.

I'm still slowly going through the clean up process at this stage. Yesterday, I tackled all the keys and cups, taking each one out of the ziplock bags and cleaning them with soap and water 1st. Then I ran pipe cleaners through the key tubes using PB Blaster, followed with a 2nd pipe cleaner with zippo fluid. Then I polished them using my jewelry cloth and put them back into the numbered ziplocks.

They all cleaned up very nicely! I am continually surprised at how well it is cleaning up for being so old.

I also started looking at the inside. I grabbed a dryer lint brush tool and tried using it from the neck end. It seems to work well, although I got concerned it would scratch up the inside of the tube where the neck is inserted, so I stopped. I think I may try another method for this ... maybe using a rag soaked with soapy water at the bell end, then tying a string to it and pulling it through to the neck end ... something like that anyway.

I also called my dad yesterday to ask him some more questions about the sax. I never knew my grandfather, as he had passed before I was born, so I don't know much about him and his musical talents. My dad told me he played sax, piano, clarinet, and a couple of other instruments. I asked if he had any memories of his dad playing this sax, and he said the only memory he has is of his dad teaching him how to play a scale on it when he was around 12 years old. Other than that, he said it sat in its case in the corner of a closet for as long as he can remember. My grandfather was born in 1910, so it seems like he was 13 years old when he got this c-mel, and most likely used it through middle and high school years .. maybe some in college, but that seems about it. That would mean sometime around 1932 was probably when the sax stopped being played on any sort of regular basis. This may explain why it seems to be in such good condition for being 100 years old.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini don’t worry about scratching the inside tube. just use a plastic brush Inside.
You can stick the whole sax submerged in a bathtub or 5 gallon bucket. Dawn dish soap tepid water. Dry with compressed air and hairdryer. Make sure you dry well / blow out the areas where the springs go through the posts. When it’s all dry coat the springs with WD-40 or light oil.

If I am removing a pad set with resonators. I duplicate providing they look proper (the tone hole ring). Sets I order with preinstalled resonators. Those I check during the dry fit stage. What you see is what you get. Mistakes happen measuring. Key alignment over hole- resonator size. Yeah all the measurements are correct. But being off-center the resonator crashes into the tone hole.
Have the SN# for MM to review pad set.

Looked over this picture before dry fitting. Pfff waist of time.

MM set worked / fit beautifully.

 

[Stoopalini]

When I was using the dryer brush, the scratching I was worried about was where the neck gets inserted into the sax body. The brush was a very tight fit into the opening there, and I was worried it would scratch the finish where the neck seals to the body potentially causing leak. I ended up using a terry cloth instead. I soaked it with soapy water, tied a string to it, and pulled it through. Then I ran a dry cloth through afterward. It's nice and clean now, and no longer has the musty smell to it anymore

I'm starting to look at the key cups now, and am not sure what to do about this sort of thing.

Here is one of the cups. It is flat across the majority of it:

But when I get to the back of it, it rocks back and forth across the center line, resulting in this gap when I press down on one side.

Looking at the cup, it appears the perimeter near the hinge is out of round a bit, maybe causing a rise in the edge?

Is this something I need to address by trying to round out this spot, or by trying to bend the cup? Or is this within tolerance of what the pad will make up for once installed?

 

[turf3]

Looks to me as if that dingleberry right next to the arm that's your problem. Don't go fooling with the overall cup shape (your picture with 85% of the cup rim being flat shows this). How it got that particular dent is hard to imagine unless someone stuck a little screwdriver in there and heaved, which would be a stupid thing to do. Doesn't matter now, what you've got is what you've got. Definitely don't potato-chip the cup to compensate for that one dent.

 

[saxoclese]

The center photo shows that the side of the key cup is higher than the center (or the center is lower than the side). The way I was taught to level the key cup was to hold the portion that is too high over the edge of the steel block, and to carefully tap it down with a small rawhide or plastic hammer. If you go too far and the center of the cup is higher than the sides, simply center the complete cup on the block and tap the rib down with a slightly larger hammer. The effect shown in the last picture is generally caused by placing a hard object under the back of the cup and bending the front down. There are special tools available to bend the front of key cups down without this type of distortion.

 

[Mark Fleming]

The cup doesn't matter unless it is really bent. It is the pad that needs to be flat (assuming that the tone hole is flat). Don't make it more difficult than necessary, as you will be the only one that knows you spent three hours trying to make the key cups flat.

 

[Stoopalini]

Thanks guys. So for this particular cup, it sounds like the issue I'm seeing probably isn't something which needs attention.

I still haven't ordered the pads yet, so I took my caliper and measured the thickness of a few of the pads which are still in one piece. I want to be sure I get the right thickness when ordering.

When measuring thickness of pads, should I clamp down on the caliper until it provides some resistance due to compressing the material ... or should I just adjust the caliper until it's touching on both sides, or some other method?

For these pics, I clamped down enough to hold the pad where it wouldn't fall when I let go of it. Does this seem accurate?

 

[PigSquealer]

That cup rim dent is quite common, where the cup meets the arm. That’s probably the result of a factory adjustment. Sometimes you can tap them over a little bit. And sometimes you better not. I do not tap them flat or file.
I let the cup hang over the edge. Check for wobble in a cross pattern. Then heel to toe. Light glancing blows with a 2 ounce plastic hammer. To determine which side to knock down look at the keys straight on or eye on side of anvil.
If the key was buffed on a bench top wheel it will look like a taco. Put the key on your anvil and tap down on the key arm. Flatten the taco.

don’t have a plastic hammer? Make one from a 5/8 round of poly propylene. Use a chopstick as a handle.

 

[PigSquealer]

I’ve made these from wood also. One side I slightly radius the edge and cover it with thin leather.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini 5.6 ? Are you sure you reset the caliper to zero with the jaws clean. 5.6 is over .200. Those pads should be around 4.1 /.160 to 4.6/.180

 

[Stoopalini]

Ya, the caliper is calibrated properly. I just remeasured a few. It's in the 5.5 - 6.0 or so if I measure to where the pad is just barely gripped enough by the caliper to prevent it from falling out ... but if I close the jaws more and measure from the center of the back of the pad (so compressing the material which is wrapped around the edges), then most are between 4.2 - 4.8 or so.

If I clamp down on it tightly, until I cannot compress it anymore, and take the measurement that way ... 6 of them measured at 3.75, 3.16, 4.35, 3.70, 4.02, and 4.04

This is what I meant when asking about the proper way to measure the pads. I'm not sure if I should be compressing the pad material with the caliper, or taking the measurement by avoiding compressing any part of the pad.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ya, the caliper is calibrated properly. I just remeasured a few. It's in the 5.5 - 6.0 or so if I measure to where the pad is just barely gripped enough by the caliper to prevent it from falling out ... but if I close the jaws more and measure from the center of the back of the pad (so compressing the material which is wrapped around the edges), then most are between 4.2 - 4.8 or so.

If I clamp down on it tightly, until I cannot compress it anymore, and take the measurement that way ... 6 of them measured at 3.75, 3.16, 4.35, 3.70, 4.02, and 4.04

This is what I meant when asking about the proper way to measure the pads. I'm not sure if I should be compressing the pad material with the caliper, or taking the measurement by avoiding compressing any part of the pad.

Snug but not compressed. Not so light that it pulls out between easily. It’s a sense of feel thing. This unit had the metal rings in the pads right? Conn Rezo pads with the lead foil inside ? They sit on the rim of the cup determining the pad height. Thickness doesn’t make any difference.
I measured a few I just pulled out of the trash. Completely different model and year but I still got close to 4 mm /.161

what matters now is the depth of the cup to the amount of protrusion needed from the cup. You should be fine with soft feel 4 mm. Tan won’t make it forgiving for your level of experience. All the mechanicals and everything included. It’s just not the pads
The thick are too thick IMHO and will feel excessively spongy to the fingers.
hopefully you took a picture something like this before you started. Visual aids at this stage are priceless.

There is still a way you can measure without the pads. But you need to install both the stacks. Get the cup looking level over the tone hole (with maybe a 1mm popsicle stick) and measure the distance. Not easy for your first to go. It’s the Bb & G# F# that will bite you. Something to pay attention to if you order a stock set. Thicker or thinner pads may be specified for different locations. These things don’t come with instructions. It’s the responsibility of the tech to know the job.
As Bones would say, good luck Jim !

 

[Stoopalini]

Ya, the original pads are the ones with the metal ring around the edges. Maybe the best course of action is to call MM and order pads which align to the cup measurements I made, but ask them to use the progressive thickness specs for a stock set of straight neck c-mel pads?

I did put the upper stack and one of the bell cups back on to check out the alignment after receiving the replacement upper stack rod from @saxoclese (thanks again!) and I do see how the cups align parallel with a gap. Last night I was thinking through how I might be able to measure from the bottom of the cup to the tone hole edge. That said, the cups are domed with the edge depth being 2.5mm and the center being variable dependent on the size of the cup. So if I measure the gap between the cup and the tone hole, when the key is actuated to bring the cup level with the tone hole ... then I should be able to add 2.5mm to this measurement and determine the optimal pad thickness, correct?

Using a set of feeler gauges, this gap is measuring 2.15mm. So adding 2.5mm to account for the depth of the cup's edge, gives me 4.65mm total. Seem about right?

I've been taking lots of pictures along the way, although not knowing what I don't know, I probably haven't taken a pic of everything I should have. For example, I don't have a pic from the angle you posted above, but I do have ones like this. I was focused on having pictures to show how the keys, rods, posts, etc .. all align to help me reassemble everything.

 

[turf3]

I'm not following the details of the thickness question, but all the horns I've ever worked on had consistent thickness from the palm key pads to the bell key pads. I will say, though, that a too-thin pad is far less troublesome than a too-thick one. You can float a thin pad on a thick bed of shellac, or you can shim behind it. If it's too thick you end up having to bend keys which rarely works out for the best.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ya, the original pads are the ones with the metal ring around the edges. Maybe the best course of action is to call MM and order pads which align to the cup measurements I made, but ask them to use the progressive thickness specs for a stock set of straight neck c-mel pads?

I did put the upper stack and one of the bell cups back on to check out the alignment after receiving the replacement upper stack rod from @saxoclese (thanks again!) and I do see how the cups align parallel with a gap. Last night I was thinking through how I might be able to measure from the bottom of the cup to the tone hole edge. That said, the cups are domed with the edge depth being 2.5mm and the center being variable dependent on the size of the cup. So if I measure the gap between the cup and the tone hole, when the key is actuated to bring the cup level with the tone hole ... then I should be able to add 2.5mm to this measurement and determine the optimal pad thickness, correct?

Using a set of feeler gauges, this gap is measuring 2.15mm. So adding 2.5mm to account for the depth of the cup's edge, gives me 4.65mm total. Seem about right?

View attachment 144287


I've been taking lots of pictures along the way, although not knowing what I don't know, I probably haven't taken a pic of everything I should have. For example, I don't have a pic from the angle you posted above, but I do have ones like this. I was focused on having pictures to show how the keys, rods, posts, etc .. all align to help me reassemble everything.

View attachment 144285

View attachment 144286

As turf mentions. It’s a lot easier to add some additional shellac or a shim. You’ve got static measurements as a point of reference now. You know the thickness is not what you measured on the pads @ 5.6/ .200+

If you measured your pad cups make the call. Personally I would stick to the 4 mm pads.
When you receive the pads do a dry fit. The cup should completely close and hopefully you will have a little gap on the hing side.

 

[saxoclese]

I'm not following the details of the thickness question, but all the horns I've ever worked on had consistent thickness from the palm key pads to the bell key pads. I will say, though, that a too-thin pad is far less troublesome than a too-thick one. You can float a thin pad on a thick bed of shellac, or you can shim behind it. If it's too thick you end up having to bend keys which rarely works out for the best.

Except for one or two cases that has been my experience as well. However, Pison in the measurements for their "pad sets" lists pads of a slightly different thickness for pads in different registers. The chart shown is for a Selmer Mark VI alto.

 

[PigSquealer]

Except for one or two cases that has been my experience as well. However, Pison in the measurements for their "pad sets" lists pads of a slightly different thickness for pads in different registers. The chart shown is for a Selmer Mark VI alto.

View attachment 144322

Interesting, that’s pretty much the upper stack, Palm keys, side E, F# and G#,F#.

 

[PigSquealer]

One thing to be aware of. Sometimes it’s dangerous to compare the thickness of the old pillow pads to what’s currently available. Yeah an old pillow pad could measure 5.6mm. Pillow being the clue as the pad could naturally compress 1.5 mm. The old ones had tons of tolerance give. A new modern pad has maybe 10% of that characteristic. So installing a modern pad at 4.1 with a little give would be the way I would go. Specifying a modern pad at 5.6 would be a mistake.

 

[Stoopalini]

Thanks guys, great input as usual.

I called MM today and asked if their pad set for the Conn straight neck c-mel had progressive pad thickness, and they said no. All pads would be the same thickness. The girl I spoke to asked a tech, and he told her I would need a combination of the regular soft feel and some thick soft feel pads, but couldn't tell me which ones would need to be the thick.

I also asked her to send me the measurements for the c-mel pad set they use; just to compare to my own measurements.

Here's how their measurements compare to mine. only a few are 1 or 1.5mm difference, so I went back and remeasured those particular ones and came to the same number I originally wrote down.

So given all this info, I'll go ahead and order individual soft feel standard thickness pads in my measured sizes. As you guys have said, if there's a couple which could have used the thick, I can add more shellac or a spacer.

Speaking of ... I was planning to use shellac to do the install instead of hot glue. I'm in central Texas, so it does get pretty hot here .. although the sax will probably never be played outside. My bigger reasoning for this is if I need to bring it to a shop after I've done this work, and for them to float some pads or adjust regulation, etc ... I think having shellac would be more standard and make for easier adjustments than if I used hot glue.

Any truth to my reasoning here?