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I used some Zippo fluid on a pipe cleaner to clean the spring slot in the post from both sides, then also used a toothpick with Zippo fluid on it, and finally put some Zippo fluid on the spring itself and ran it back and forth in the slot to try and get it cleaned as much as possible.

I have some blue loctite on hand, so used a toothpick to put some on the spring where it'll sit inside the post

I checked other springs on the sax, and notice how flush the back of the springs are is inconsistent across them. Some are very flush, and some look like this one does.

I think I'm going to leave it as is for now, and let the loctite setup. If the spring falls out again during the rest of the work I'm doing, then I'll readdress this ... but hopefully what I've done here will be good enough to last?

Once the horn is assembled and there is tension on the springs, it'll aid in keeping them secure in place. Unless they wiggle around in the post, you will be just fine.

 

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Shellac the pads in on the disassembled parts / stacks. Use a little more shellac than what you think you need so that there is a bit of a cushion between the pads and the cups but try to have them somewhat parallel to the cups. After you re-assemble everything, you'll have leaks everywhere, don't worry, that's normal.
In the assembled stack, heat up the cups to the point where you feel the pads move or actually rise in the cups (the shellac will start to bubble) and then gently press the cup close - I often use the handle of a wooden ladle. That way you get a very good alignment of the pads with the tone holes and you don't have to press hard to "make a seat". If done correctly, you get a very shallow, full circle at even depth all around impression and that's the goal. If there is a little too much shellac, it will escape around the edge of the pad and don't worry, it won't stick to the pads but once it is cooled off, you can gently remove it with a tooth pick or even an eraser.

Once all pads are "leveled" the hard part starts, that is, the regulation for equal key height and synchronized closing of the pads. Never try to bend anything unless it is absolutely unavoidable. All of this can be done with little cork shims at the actuator bars. If you don't have it, get a set of assorted thickness cork sheets (Music Medic) from 1/64 to 1/8" thickness, most of what you need will be around 1/16 to 1/32 thickness.

Cut the little shims, try to dry-fit them (many will need to be tapered/wedges) and sand them into shape before gluing them in using contact cement (Weldwood etc). For the final adjustments, use 320 - 400 grit sand paper strips and a piece of paper underneath to protect the horn. It's a tedious process if you have never done it before. But that's really all I can tell you

Start with the upper stack before you have the palm keys or anything else that can get in the way and work yourself down.

Good Luck

 

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Thanks guys, I appreciate the great advice!

I actually reassembled it earlier today with the pads dry fitted. Two of the pads are falling out though, so I'll get 0.5mm larger for these two.

Everything seems to have gone back together well. A couple of cups were not centered so I tweaked their key arms a bit and they centered up.

Looking at how the pads meet the tone holes, everything looks pretty good to my untrained eye. The pads are making 1st contact on the front edge, and most have a slight gap on the hinge side when closed. I'm thinking this is perfect as the shellac will add height.That said, some seem to touch evenly just dry fitted. I haven't dropped the leak light in or anything, but I thought I may do so just to get a look, thinking it may help inform me how much shellac I should use for each cup. Is it accurate to assume if there's a gap at the hinge side it means I should use more shellac than if there is no gap? And the larger the gap at the hinge side would mean more shellac to add height?

In terms of bedding the pads in, and then floating them after mounting the cups ... Should I do the floating with the springs disconnected and using just gravity to pull the cup down, or should I connect the springs and actuate the touch piece with light pressure?

I imagine both methods probably have their benefits and drawbacks. My initial thought was to disconnect the springs and let gravity pull the cup down, then heat it up and let the pad settle ... providing some help with the pin vice as needed. Should I have the leak light in the body when doing this, so I can tell when the pad is fully contacting the tone hole?

When I was reassembling everything, I was paying particular attention to any side to side play in the remaining key work, and I didn't find any. Only that one on the bell has a slight bit of movement, but all the others are tight between the posts.

I also noticed these touch pieces (palm keys maybe?) seemed like they should be in a straight line, but I'm not sure ... do they seem right to you guys? I don't want to go adjusting anything at this stage, but this just caught my eye and I thought I'd ask while I'm thinking about it.

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In my experience, gravity alone will not do the trick, you can try but my feeling is that by the time you have the pads perfectly floated using gravity only, you have done too much heat damage (for lack of a better term). When you have the choice between being cute and getting the job done, which one do you think is better?

Be aware that rolled tone holes will add a bit of challenge when it comes down to getting a perfect seal, I love them but they just require a bit extra care.

Overall, it looks like you are doing a terrific job, congratulations. But one thing you will notice is that it is not possible to add equal amounts of shellac to every pad. Well, it is possible but beyond impractical, hence my earlier advice to be a bit over-generous and squeeze out the surplus (gravity won't do that) to get the best possible fit. It's all a matter of getting used to the job, you ask 20 techs, and you'll get 20 different answers and what I am telling you is just my own personal preference as a non-tech with a few decades of microsurgery experience if that counts for anything.

The centering you mentioned, absolutely yes but be very careful to not bend the tubes, you'll end up with uneven friction for the different keys, which is acceptable if you play very slow ballads but not for anything else.

The right hand palm keys you show, yes, align them, otherwise you'll end up with all kinds of mayhem.

Again, it looks you are on the right path to a great horn (I love c-mels), don't hesitate to ask if there are any more roadblocks (which there will be)

 

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... When I close the cup down, the gap actually gets worse

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I tried rotating the pad, thinking maybe the pad itself wasn't flat .. but the gap remains in the same place no matter the clocking orientation of the pad.

For this one, I'm thinking I'll need to somehow get the pad to pull down on this one side only, and hold it there while the shellac sets up. Like shellac the pad in, install the key cup, activate the touch point to close the cup, then heat up the back of the key cup while holding the touch point, and use the pin vice to pull this one side down ... and hold it there until the shellac cools enough so the pad can maintain the non-uniform shape.

Does this seem like the right approach?

What I said above. Use an extra little bit of shellac and let it float into level with the chimney. And as @saxoclese said, tapping may be a better way of "massaging" the pad into place than just pressure but it is a case by case decision of what works best.

One thing that you probably noticed by now is that prep work is the mother of all fitting and you appear to have done a good job overall. But also keep in mind that a pad doesn't need to be parallel to the cup, but it is important for it to be parallel to the chimney. Finally, many of the antique/vintage horns did use different thickness pads for the upper vs. lower stack, that is, 4 mm for the upper and 5 mm for the lower stack. You can get away with uniform 4 mm thickness but not the other way around.

 

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This thread should be made a “sticky” for the next DIY guys that come along.

Except that the next guy has a different perception of how to restore a horn! Nice try, though!

 

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If you do decide to use a shim behind the pad, I'd use shellac on both sides of the shim. Your choice whether to shellack the shim into the cup first and then float the pad, or attach it to the pad first; I've not done this before and have no opinion, but I'd use shellac for all of it, then it will all come apart neatly with heat the next time it has to come apart.

It's his first repad job and I strongly advise against shims, just because it'll add an unnecessary level of complexity. Otherwise, that's how I would do it, too.

 

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So the pad I was concerned about needing a thick pad for is this one on the bell:

View attachment 145078


Here is what the dry fit looked like with the pad inserted into the cup:

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The size of the gap created when the cup is parallel with the chimney is almost as thick as the new pad itself ...

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So I was hesitant to do a really thick bed of shellac to try and get the pad be level with both the chimney and the cup. Based on what folks said about not worrying about the pad being level with the cup, I decided to try my hand at a 1/2 circle shim.

View attachment 145076

I 1st applied shellac to the back of the pad as usual, and flattened it out on the anvil. Then I formed the 1/2 circle shim to the shape of the curvature inside the cup and shellaced it in on the hinge side. Next I added a good amount of shellac to the center of the cup and then hit the shellac on the inside of the cup with my butane torch, to turn it to liquid so it would level out. Finally I placed the pad into the cup before the shellac was cool.

After the cup cooled down, I then mounted it on the horn and heated it again with my butane torch, implementing the tap method. This worked well, although I still had a small leak in one spot. So I heated the quadrant of the cup where the leak was, and used my pin vice to pull down in the spot, and held it until the shellac set up again.

Here is the result ... notice how far out of the cup the back of the pad is compared to the front.

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And here's a quick video showing how it seals. I know the general advice is to stay away from shims, but this seems to have turned out ok. I still need to clean the cup up a bit from some shellac strings which dried on it, but that is very easy with this stuff

Good job!

 

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Great tip on the shellac strings, thanks!

I think what I'll do is continue down the path I'm on, making note of any other pads which may need something thicker, if any. I'm sure I'll need to order a few more things, and when I do, I can get one (or more) soft feel thick pads if I decide to swap it out.

I won't do any bending until I get to the adjustment and regulation portion, I was just thinking ahead wondering if using a thinner pad than what was in there before would cause more headache down the road. For now, I'll just continue setting the pads in though.

I was able to do 3 more today with no issues ... only 21 more to go!

I hope you did not start on the wrong end, you need to go top to bottom, not bottom's up
Not that it matters, at least not for the repad. But for the regulation it is crucial that you start at the upper stack, otherwise you'll be chasing your own tail around the sun and moon!

 

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The G# key can be bent up a bit, its height is regulated by the other actuator on the same rod, so it is a "rotational" bend where the two members on the same rod are twisted against each other but since you take the horn in for a final inspection, regulation, ask the tech to do it.
Very nice job so far!

 

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Those definitely look nice, but as you said, $190 shipping plus $100 for the case is a bit much for my purposes. If this horn were going to be transported regularly, I would definitely invest in a road worthy case; but it'll stay at home hanging on the wall 99.9% of the time. So I figured sprucing up the original case would suffice for those rare times I would be transporting it.

Here's where it will live most of its life ... although yesterday, it did come down for my very 1st sax lesson with my son He taught me how to wet the reed, get a decent grip on the mouthpiece, and play a basic scale. It was fun to make some sounds with it!

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Get some anti tarnish cloth to make a little hoodie, otherwise it'll tarnish faster than you can watch. Of course, if you like that blackened look, that's a different story.

 

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Does that apply to nickel plated as well as silver? I didn't think the nickel plating would tarnish just hanging on the wall like silver would.

Sorry, I didn't realize / may have forgotten that it is nickel. In that case, you really don't need to worry about it!

 

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Happy to test it if it's non-destructive. I have HCL and a variety of reagents on hand (pool owner), just not sure how to interpret an HCL test; as I've never seen it react with zinc, chrome, or nickel.

I highly doubt someone would have had this horn refinished though. After my grandfather stopped playing it sometime around 1933 or so, it sat in the case in the corner of a closet. Then it was moved from New England to Texas, where it sat in my dad's closet until I asked him for it about 3 years ago. Since then, it's been mounted on my son's wall until I started the restoration last month.

Don't bother, all you'll do is some (even if it is minor) damage. Everything points at Ni, so leave it at that.