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Music Medic has a program where you send them all the measurements and they put together a set in accordance with your measurements. Manufacturers change pad cup sizes on occasion and these don't always get documented. MM probably have measurements from the horns they've overhauled, so I'd guess a lot of data on some horns and less on others. Plus that doesn't account for the day in the factory when they were out of 1 1/8" cups and used a 1 3/16" cup. Measure them all and send those measurements.
I've ordered pad sets from them twice - first for a Buescher soprano - surely a well documented instrument - ordered by serial number - and got sets with one pad of grossly wrong size (see above note on "that one day at the factory". The second time I provided all the measurements and they fit perfectly.
My recommendation would be to order the completely standard tan leather pads, with flat metal boosters. This closely approximates the Conn Res-O-pads that might or might not have been used originally. At any rate, whenever Conn went from plain rivet pads to flat metal boosters on the pads, there's no evidence that they changed anything else about the horns, so you'll get a more modern and projecting sound with the boosters.
One possible gotcha to watch out for is if any of your pads has a really big keycup with a tiny tone hole, then a standard booster may interfere with the tone hole. In that case you may want to buy one pad with plain center hole and one small booster (or you can use, for just one position, a fender washer from the hardware store).
Also as you're disassembling check that the pad impressions are more or less centered - if not, something's probably bent and needs to be corrected.
I've ordered pad sets from them twice - first for a Buescher soprano - surely a well documented instrument - ordered by serial number - and got sets with one pad of grossly wrong size (see above note on "that one day at the factory". The second time I provided all the measurements and they fit perfectly.
My recommendation would be to order the completely standard tan leather pads, with flat metal boosters. This closely approximates the Conn Res-O-pads that might or might not have been used originally. At any rate, whenever Conn went from plain rivet pads to flat metal boosters on the pads, there's no evidence that they changed anything else about the horns, so you'll get a more modern and projecting sound with the boosters.
One possible gotcha to watch out for is if any of your pads has a really big keycup with a tiny tone hole, then a standard booster may interfere with the tone hole. In that case you may want to buy one pad with plain center hole and one small booster (or you can use, for just one position, a fender washer from the hardware store).
Also as you're disassembling check that the pad impressions are more or less centered - if not, something's probably bent and needs to be corrected.
That kind of thing's how I've gotten the majority of gigs; on the other hand, I think it's kept me from truly focusing on one voice which may have been detrimental to some extent. Any time I say "you know, I think I'm just gonna play baritone [or alto, or whatever]" invariably someone calls up and says "hey, we need a tenor who can read and solo" and I don't have the guts to say no....It's a good skill for your son to be flexible, going from alto to tenor. When I made it to college, though I wanted to play tenor in the jazz band, the only seat available to me was bari. Could I play bari, the director asked? Heck yeah, I can play bari!
Most likely nickel, not chrome. Have never heard of a chrome plated sax in the 1920s, but lots and lots of nickel plated ones.
It's not usual for springs to be plated; in fact it's very bad practice due to hydrogen embrittlement, but if it's lasted that long it's obviously not going to be a problem. Just clean it up with some steel wool, put a bit of oil on it, and it'll be good for another 100 years probably.
You'll need to replace that pivot screw, and it's not going to be easy to find one. Best way is probably to get with a tech with a small lathe and have him turn up a few of them. Note that there are at least two kinds of those pivot screws - you have the kind with straight sides, but the later ones have a taper - and I don't know if they're interchangeable. Another option is to clean the whole post real well, use Loctite (the light duty stuff) to lock it in place, and do all the work from the other end, if it's possible. I've got a couple posts on my bari like that.
Some years ago Ferree's still sold the wee set screws - I STRONGLY advise you to buy a dozen or so. You're likely to find some sheared in half, some stuck in the posts, etc.
As for pads, I would STILL recommend standard tan pads with flat metal boosters. Rivet pads will make an already soft-sounding, low-projecting horn even more so; the boosters will add just a little "sparkle" or "bite" and make it sound a bit more like what we expect saxophones to sound like.
It's not usual for springs to be plated; in fact it's very bad practice due to hydrogen embrittlement, but if it's lasted that long it's obviously not going to be a problem. Just clean it up with some steel wool, put a bit of oil on it, and it'll be good for another 100 years probably.
You'll need to replace that pivot screw, and it's not going to be easy to find one. Best way is probably to get with a tech with a small lathe and have him turn up a few of them. Note that there are at least two kinds of those pivot screws - you have the kind with straight sides, but the later ones have a taper - and I don't know if they're interchangeable. Another option is to clean the whole post real well, use Loctite (the light duty stuff) to lock it in place, and do all the work from the other end, if it's possible. I've got a couple posts on my bari like that.
Some years ago Ferree's still sold the wee set screws - I STRONGLY advise you to buy a dozen or so. You're likely to find some sheared in half, some stuck in the posts, etc.
As for pads, I would STILL recommend standard tan pads with flat metal boosters. Rivet pads will make an already soft-sounding, low-projecting horn even more so; the boosters will add just a little "sparkle" or "bite" and make it sound a bit more like what we expect saxophones to sound like.
As to polishing, for a mirror finish like that you want a minimal abrasive polish. My favorite for sensitive stufff is Simichrome.
You're not going to need to DO much polishing, and you want to do it all by hand (slip little pieces of cork over the points of the springs first!) Just getting the thing clean and giving it a good wipedown with a microfiber cloth will do a great deal; you might well decide to stop there. I probably would. The thing is, any kind of "corrosion" you might see will most probably be from tiny pits in the nickel plate and corrosion of the brass substrate and there's nothing you can do about that except to wipe off any verdigris. What I've seen in your pix of the Ni plate looks real good. Ni can sometimes get a grey haze that's real hard to polish off, but yours doesn't seem to have that.
You're not going to need to DO much polishing, and you want to do it all by hand (slip little pieces of cork over the points of the springs first!) Just getting the thing clean and giving it a good wipedown with a microfiber cloth will do a great deal; you might well decide to stop there. I probably would. The thing is, any kind of "corrosion" you might see will most probably be from tiny pits in the nickel plate and corrosion of the brass substrate and there's nothing you can do about that except to wipe off any verdigris. What I've seen in your pix of the Ni plate looks real good. Ni can sometimes get a grey haze that's real hard to polish off, but yours doesn't seem to have that.
Somehow I have the idea that they are different thread pitches, too. I'm pretty sure the tapered-point ones are 4-48, and I think once upon a time a poster here said the other type were 4-40.The OP’s pivot screw is not common to any I have.
View attachment 143326
Oddly this is the second C I’ve see with this style just this year. II think @Hoosier Ken had the other.
Below is what you’ll normally find on Conn.
View attachment 143325
.... .
One could rather easily make a pivot screw from threaded rod, if you were positive of the thread and could find it in that thread. Personally this is where I'd suggest buying a set of thread gauges so you can be sure, not just guess.
If the older and newer style pivots ARE the same thread (please check with thread gauges first) then it's possible the new style could be used to replace the old, though I don't think it would work the other way round.
How I make small parts like this without a mini-lathe: 1) Clamp a drill motor in a bench vise. 2) Chuck the workpiece (in this case it'd be a piece of threaded rod of the correct thread) in the drill chuck. 3) While it's spinning, use a Dremel on the spinning part for major material removal (the spinning-in-the-drill-chuck will make it even all round). 4) Use files for fine work and final clean-up.
These aren't super accurate parts and this method will work well enough if you're careful and dextrous. If you're a ham handed klutz that could break an I-beam, not so much.
For pads I like a hot air gun with a concentrating nozzle. I made my nozzle myself but heat guns that sell for a little more come with a selection of them.
To protect pearls or other stuff, I either use a common teaspoon held over the sensitive thing, or I wrap with a couple wraps of aluminum foil.
I had some exciting experiences when I was younger using open flames next to leather pads and shellac. The slower action of the heat gun makes it safer for the occasional user who doesn't do this all day long to develop the touch to use a torch.
For that thread I'd span both threaded sections with the thread gauge to make sure. 4-40 and 4-48 aren't all THAT different over two and a half threads. I can't advise whether it'd be a better choice for you to pay $50 for one, or to make it yourself from 4-40 threaded rod, or to pay a machinist to turn off 50 of them and sell them to other people on the net.
To protect pearls or other stuff, I either use a common teaspoon held over the sensitive thing, or I wrap with a couple wraps of aluminum foil.
I had some exciting experiences when I was younger using open flames next to leather pads and shellac. The slower action of the heat gun makes it safer for the occasional user who doesn't do this all day long to develop the touch to use a torch.
For that thread I'd span both threaded sections with the thread gauge to make sure. 4-40 and 4-48 aren't all THAT different over two and a half threads. I can't advise whether it'd be a better choice for you to pay $50 for one, or to make it yourself from 4-40 threaded rod, or to pay a machinist to turn off 50 of them and sell them to other people on the net.
Denatured alcohol is just ethanol to which enough methanol has been added to make it poisonous so it's not taxed as liquor. If you just need a small quantity buy some Everclear at the liquor store; the taxes won't matter to you for that small quantity.YIKES !! that’s the worlds most expensive screw !
@Stoopalini see post #23 bottom picture. In the foreground you’ll see an alcohol lamp that the tech in the video calls a Bunsen burner. Denatured alcohol may be available in your area although it is banned in California. A good heat source (and fire hazard )but you’ll do better with a hot air setup.
An alcohol lamp is a very different thing from a Bunsen burner.
You don't necessarily have to replace the entire rod. I've cut a small piece of the correct diameter drill rod and brazed it onto the (shortened) end of a damaged rod. Then clean up the joint and make a new slot. Still working 25 years later.Success! Although I think I either need a new rod or get this one straightened and the slot repaired.
View attachment 143461
What appears as "rust" will be the underlying brass showing through at small pits in the nickel plating. There's little you can do there except to clean things. You won't be able to polish nickel back into the pits, so don't waste your time trying.
Wouldn't hurt to wipe down the pad cups with alcohol, just to remove any possible oily residue that might hinder adhesion of the shellac.
I'd just wipe off the tone hole rims with alcohol and a paper towel. You certainly don't want to risk going through the plating there, if it starts developing verdigris the pad can get real sticky.
I'd just wipe off the tone hole rims with alcohol and a paper towel. You certainly don't want to risk going through the plating there, if it starts developing verdigris the pad can get real sticky.
Also check at the "dry fit" stage that the cup is more or less centered over the tone hole. Bend key arms as needed. Be careful! There are places where the key arm is stronger and stiffer than the hinge tube, so make sure if you do bend the arm that it's really the arm that you're bending! Support things appropriately to make sure your bending is correct.Just make sure the cups are flat, round and appear parallel with the hinge tube. Assemble everything. Dry fit the pads to check the thickness for heel - toe fit.
Conns generally have pretty level tone holes, I think. I wouldn't mess with them either by filing/sanding (NO!) or trying to raise parts of the body unless for dent removal. Minor irregularities are why pads are made of leather and felt.
For felt and cork, Weldwood contact cement (NOT the toluene-free version, the traditional stuff) is good. I use very little felt, as its thickness is imprecise. You can get enough contact cement to wick into it to hold. "Superglue" is brittle; I don't see a lot of use for it on saxes, except maybe for an emergency cork re-attachment.
Clean all surfaces to which an adhesive will be applied. For your Ni plated horn, acetone will be most effective. Of course acetone must not be used on lacquer. For lacquer horns use alcohol.
For felt and cork, Weldwood contact cement (NOT the toluene-free version, the traditional stuff) is good. I use very little felt, as its thickness is imprecise. You can get enough contact cement to wick into it to hold. "Superglue" is brittle; I don't see a lot of use for it on saxes, except maybe for an emergency cork re-attachment.
Clean all surfaces to which an adhesive will be applied. For your Ni plated horn, acetone will be most effective. Of course acetone must not be used on lacquer. For lacquer horns use alcohol.
I would still only use felt in places where the thickness of the bumper is not critical. No inter-key linkages, maybe key feet, definitely bell key bumpers.
One place a lot of people use felt that I don't is at the front F where it pushes down the "B" key, as well as in the bis key region (this differs according to the specific horn). They do this because the two keys involved are on different pivots so there's a (small) amount of relative sliding motion. What I do is to use cork so the interaction is accurately controlled, and then I just apply some cork grease. I've even seen felt on the left hand table, where the regulation REALLY needs to be accurate. I wouldn't do that; cork all the way in that location. Not being a pro, I haven't had occasion to use the new "tech cork" which is claimed to be even more stable than natural, but I'd suggest you give that a try.
If you've stripped your horn all the way down, you may as well replace all the soft materials. No sense doing all that and then having the regulation depend on some 100 year old shards of cork. I think the best strategy is to get all the pads in and seated to their tone holes BEFORE you put even the first piece of regulation cork, THEN work in a systematic manner so you're not mixing pad seating efforts with mechanism regulation efforts (does this pad leak because it's not properly seated, or because the cork that's supposed to close it is too thin, or because the cork it uses to close another pad is too thick?)
Looking a little more at the video, I don't think I would put a soft material on a soft material for precise regulation the way he's wrapped the bar with leather and then has cork on the key foot. Too much squishiness for my taste. I'd do one or the other, but not both. I know Matt's got a great reputation and I'm sure he has reasons for doing it that way, just saying that it doesn't appeal to me.
One place a lot of people use felt that I don't is at the front F where it pushes down the "B" key, as well as in the bis key region (this differs according to the specific horn). They do this because the two keys involved are on different pivots so there's a (small) amount of relative sliding motion. What I do is to use cork so the interaction is accurately controlled, and then I just apply some cork grease. I've even seen felt on the left hand table, where the regulation REALLY needs to be accurate. I wouldn't do that; cork all the way in that location. Not being a pro, I haven't had occasion to use the new "tech cork" which is claimed to be even more stable than natural, but I'd suggest you give that a try.
If you've stripped your horn all the way down, you may as well replace all the soft materials. No sense doing all that and then having the regulation depend on some 100 year old shards of cork. I think the best strategy is to get all the pads in and seated to their tone holes BEFORE you put even the first piece of regulation cork, THEN work in a systematic manner so you're not mixing pad seating efforts with mechanism regulation efforts (does this pad leak because it's not properly seated, or because the cork that's supposed to close it is too thin, or because the cork it uses to close another pad is too thick?)
Looking a little more at the video, I don't think I would put a soft material on a soft material for precise regulation the way he's wrapped the bar with leather and then has cork on the key foot. Too much squishiness for my taste. I'd do one or the other, but not both. I know Matt's got a great reputation and I'm sure he has reasons for doing it that way, just saying that it doesn't appeal to me.
Looks to me as if that dingleberry right next to the arm that's your problem. Don't go fooling with the overall cup shape (your picture with 85% of the cup rim being flat shows this). How it got that particular dent is hard to imagine unless someone stuck a little screwdriver in there and heaved, which would be a stupid thing to do. Doesn't matter now, what you've got is what you've got. Definitely don't potato-chip the cup to compensate for that one dent.
I'm not following the details of the thickness question, but all the horns I've ever worked on had consistent thickness from the palm key pads to the bell key pads. I will say, though, that a too-thin pad is far less troublesome than a too-thick one. You can float a thin pad on a thick bed of shellac, or you can shim behind it. If it's too thick you end up having to bend keys which rarely works out for the best.
I don't like hot melt glue. I've used it a couple times when I didn't have any shellac sticks, but it strings all over the place. Its properties when heated are quite different than those of shellac. Plus it's a bear to get off any excess. Just buy several Music Medic sticks and you'll be good to go.
There are various techniques, but most people seem to try to completely fill the space behind the pad.
Here's what I do.
1) The pad has a cavity on its back formed when the leather's folded over and secured to the cardboard. I fill that cavity with shellac.
2) I put a thick-ish coat of shellac on the inside of the cup.
3) Put pad in cup, heat cup, float pad to be in good level contact with tone hole rim all round. Push down high spots, pull up low spots. That "pull up low spots" is far harder so I always aim to have it too thick at first so I can get it good and level all round by pushing. This is where spending time in dry fitting pads and leveling cups really pays off. That's why the factory can usually get away with just a little dab of shellac; because the mechanism is all brand new and level.
Here's what I do.
1) The pad has a cavity on its back formed when the leather's folded over and secured to the cardboard. I fill that cavity with shellac.
2) I put a thick-ish coat of shellac on the inside of the cup.
3) Put pad in cup, heat cup, float pad to be in good level contact with tone hole rim all round. Push down high spots, pull up low spots. That "pull up low spots" is far harder so I always aim to have it too thick at first so I can get it good and level all round by pushing. This is where spending time in dry fitting pads and leveling cups really pays off. That's why the factory can usually get away with just a little dab of shellac; because the mechanism is all brand new and level.
My recommendation - take off all the key regulation corks, then get all the pads seated, then put the new corks and start adjusting. This way you know that if you see light, it's because the pad's not regulated properly, not because it's not seated properly.
You swage the tube with the rod in. Springback should prevent it from being too tight on the rod afterward.
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