[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini welcome to SOTW. You’re going to have a great time repairing this fine C melody.
It’s a 1923/24 in what looks like nickel plated finish.
Have you ever made a jigsaw puzzle? I don’t believe they come with instructions ! Don’t freak out about all the key parts not going back together. put them in one big pile. Then refer back to your pictures to sort them out. You will learn much quicker this way. Do keep all the hardware in the same sequence/ order. Make yourself a caddy from scrap wood.

Although not exactly the same Saxophone here’s a quick primer.

Conn 14M USA Disassembly

A few months ago I did a numbered disassembly on a 14m Director aka Shooting Star. This works for me but may not be politically correct. Before I started I did a full review. Measurements of key heights and “to repair “ notes. Take lots of pictures to help yourself later on reassembly. Start...

www.saxontheweb.net

Make a spring tool. Lots to learn from Steve Howard.

Making a springhook for woodwind instruments

How to make your own springhook.

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

What little I can see down the body tube picture does not appear that it is bent. Still take LOTS of pictures! Make notes of the cork thicknesses and locations. Can be done directly on the pictures. Note the height opening of the keys. Typically it is a unnecessary to level rolled tone holes. I am unfamiliar with the source you listed for pads. As others have suggested the Music Medic pads are a good quality and they are service oriented people. I suggest going with the soft feel pads. Not the soft feel thick or regular tan. The soft feel have a little more give for the DIY repairer. Although I wouldn’t hesitate to give Neo pads a try. I just can’t recommend them as I have no experience with their use.

Matt Sthorer has some excellent videos on servicing the neck micro tuner. Pay special close attention to the set screw position in the retaining ring !


Once you have it apart clean it in the bathtub in tepid water and Dawn dish soap. If you use a brush be gentle so you don’t end up with swirl marks in the plating. You can use a long brush to clean out the interior.

clothes dryer cleaning brush - Google Search

After washing blow the unit off with compressed air. A hair dryer on low heat and high fan is another good option. Once dry coat the springs with a WD-40 pen applicator to prevent rusting.
Regarding getting stabbed to death by the springs. Learn to pick up the instrument by the bell end. There’s no springs in the bell 😉

You’re welcome to send me a PM if you get stuck.

Good luck on your repair journey.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini
... But to an untrained eye, nothing looks bent or out of shape.
looks to be in great shape !

I'll be sure to calibrate the digital caliper before using it to measure the cups, good point. I have my luthier tools I can use for this.
Digital calipers should have a reset to zero function. Just make sure the jaws are clean when it’s closed when resetting.

Speaking of cleaning and polish ... what is good to use for this? On my guitars, I use car care products but I don't think those would be good to use here. For the initial cleaning to remove the 80 or so years of build-up ... do I just use dish soap and water?
Dawn dish soap. Rinse well. Polish? Be careful what you use it could leave a rainbow petroleum residue look. Waxes on nickel can become blotchy. Whatever your choice make it non-abrasive.

Does the smoothness of the inside affect the sound at all, or is it just cosmetic?
No. I guess cosmetic could be one reason. A clean interior prevents it from generating a foul smell that makes your pads stink.

I read somewhere (or maybe saw it in one of the YouTube videos I watched) that I shouldn't use any liquid based polishes. So is there a gold standard for dry polish which is good to use on nickel horns, or maybe a particular type of cloth?
i’d be interested in your findings on what works.

For replacing the missing key cork, is there a standard thickness to use for that, or is each setup a little different and requires measuring and choosing the correct thickness for each replacement piece?
I believe Music Medic has a starter assortment. If I remember correctly it’s enough to do a couple-4 horns. Pay attention to the thicknesses you are removing.

I saw in some videos where the technician is wrapping felt around some of the rods in particular locations. I don't see any felt on any of the rods, or even any indication there ever was any on the rods. So is this just a feature of some horns and not all ... or is it a preference thing, or maybe a higher end trait?
this doesn’t apply to your instrument. This is usually an application to reduce noise. You will have two saddle supports that will be lined with cork. Occasionally felt is used in this position.

Thanks again for all the great info .. it's a big help to this newbie ... and my son will thank you if I can pull this off
A great father son project 🙌

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini
Thank you @PigSquealer , I appreciate the your input and encouragement
You’re welcome. Assembling a saxophone properly is a lot more challenging than it appears to be. Don’t be in a hurry to disassemble your unit. Take a week of good study from all sources and members. Your biggest mistakes will be those you didn’t understand or study.

I ordered a saxophone spring tool set today instead of trying to make one myself.
The link to the Spring hook also included a trove of information. Including servicing the micro tuner. The black museum is a good display of things gone wrong.

The Black Museum - a woodwind house of horror.

An exhibition of botches, horrors, monsters and other assorted nasties

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

Hopefully I can begin the measurement and documentation process tomorrow.
You can start the process now by measuring the key openings. Use a plastic ruler so you don’t scratch things. Working in millimeters is easier. While doing so pay attention as mentioned above to things that may be bent or off-center. Some things you can straighten and some you better not ! Note it ! Also note / pay attention to the protrusion of the pad from the cup. This will come in to play later on in fit / regulation.
Here is a (alto) example of the upper and lower stack measurements.

When I get to reassembly, should I be using some sort of machine oil on pivot points and friction areas? If so, any particular brand/type which is best?
Highly debated subject. The tolerances were much looser 100 years ago. Some were assembled with oil and some with a very light grease. I always use grease on pivot points. Whatever you choose make sure it does not contain sulfur. Sulfur will turn the silver black with burn marks. Same effect as contact with a rubber band. Although yours is nickel plate I maintain the discipline throughout my builds.

It looks like MM has a pad kit specifically for the Conn straight neck c-mel:
***
Although several folks above have said not to order a kit. I plan to measure everything anyway, so maybe I can order the kit and send all my measurements to MM as additional info?
Yes they do. And as mentioned it’s the best bet to measure the cups. Order the set and in the drop-down menu place the sizes.

In terms of ordering the pads, I did a bit of reading about resonators. Without getting into all the contentious points about their value or impact to the sound and sealing properties ... I would like to know if this horn had any resonators from the factory.
I did a quick Google search for "1923 Conn C Melody" to see if I could find out, but it's tough to tell. I do see some results with a description stating "all original" which shows resonators, but most results do not.
These came with rivets only. Flat metal resonators will brighten the instrument some.

I think this is a "New Wonder I" horn, correct? Although it doesn't have any engraving on it.
Yes NW1, Some but not all Conn have a model designation by the serial number. IE; 8M but you’ll never find that on a C melody. The nickel plated ones had sparse engraving.
Here's an example of one of the images I found which states its all original:
Not original pads but are very old.
View attachment 143121

My thought was to order the Softfeel pads with whatever resonator option most closely matches what it would have had from the factory.
Not much difference between the tan and soft feel. Although the soft feel have a little more give for a DIY pad job. They won’t be so fussy on the installation getting them to seal. Factory pads were a rivet. If you fill the back of the pad with shellac they will play brighter than OE but not as bright as a flat metal resonator. The plain rivet will be easier to install. Nothing obstructing you for making them flat in the cup. On a flat metal resonator the rivet is protruding some. Buy the MM clear synthetic shellac. One stick will do the entire horn. It doesn’t take a lot of heat and it’s easy to clean up.

Whatever heat source you choose be careful you do not burn the pearls. You will need heat to remove the old pads.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini there’s always a chance this instrument might play as is. I haven’t seen all the pads. You may be able to disassemble it, clean, oil, reassemble and regulate.
Although it may be necessary to change a few pads. Usually the ones that are always closed. If nothing else it would be a very good learning experience.
in your supplies you’re also going to need some contact cement to apply the cork. Pipe cleaners to clean the tubes along with a little zippo lighter fluid. lighter fluid you can pick up at 7-Eleven for two dollars.

 

[PigSquealer]

I have another DIY rebuild thread coming up soon. Early 60s RMC Martin Indiana alto. If anyone is interested in participating alongside this build with their own DIY build please join in. It doesn’t make any difference what year, Alto,C,Tenor or maker.

 

[PigSquealer]

Here’s an example of when you DON’T want to straighten a key arm. Somewhere during this sopranos journey a tech bent this arm to get it centered better over the tone hole.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stoopalini be careful handling those pads. The foil is made from lead.

 

[PigSquealer]

I have another DIY rebuild thread coming up soon. Early 60s RMC Martin Indiana alto. If anyone is interested in participating alongside this build with their own DIY build please join in. It doesn’t make any difference what year, Alto,C,Tenor or maker.

Martin Indiana Alto DIY full repad & service

@CharlieOregon sent me his early 1960’s RMC Martin Indiana alto to do a educational thread. He is the original owner. Hopefully he will chime in and tell us of it’s journey. It started with many months of doing a newspaper route to earn the money…. Overall it‘s in good shape. No signs of damage...

www.saxontheweb.net

 

[PigSquealer]

I'm surprised that nobody on SOTW has offered you, either free or for a price, a Conn pivot screw. The little Conn grub screws are more difficult to come by. I've needed a screw in the past and posted here under "Wanted." Response came quick and the screw can be taped to a piece of cardboard and mailed in an envelope. Most of the real techs here have junker parts saxophones. I'm not a real tech and have only one extra Martin pivot screw that I'm hoarding.

The OP’s pivot screw is not common to any I have.

Oddly this is the second C I’ve see with this style just this year. II think @Hoosier Ken had the other.
Below is what you’ll normally find on Conn.

@Stoopalini . You may have some luck spraying the entire Saxophone disassembled with WD-40. Let it dissolve and loosen crud and then give it a degreasing bath in Dawn dish soap. I’ve done this on automotive parts but not a saxophone.

 

[PigSquealer]

Regarding a heat source, since you’ve never done this kind of work before, I steongly recommend using a heat gun. AKA hot air torch. Music Medic sells one, but you can find the exact same item for much less on Amazon or Ebay. Just not branded as a woodwind repair tool. I think they are called a solder rework station.

There’s a thread on hot air torches around here somewhere. Yes it is a solder rework station. For $10 more than a junk propane torch you can have a decent hot air torch. And that’s not counting the refill bottle. So it comes out to be a wash.

 

[PigSquealer]

Oddly the OP’s looks factory orginal. I’m not seeing where it would be normally countersunk for the head. His is a 1923-24 vin.

I was curious so I pulled out my 1922 for comparison SN#818xx.

4-48 didn’t go !
Thread is a very loose 3-48. Major diameter of the tap(2 flute) is .101 The major diameter of the screw is .104 and fits reasonable in the existing threaded hole. So ??

Drilling and tapping that setscrew hole accurately is also very challenging. So now I’m wondering if this was factory? Did Conn use set screws prior to the transitional ?

 

[PigSquealer]

YIKES !! that’s the worlds most expensive screw !
@Stoopalini see post #23 bottom picture. In the foreground you’ll see an alcohol lamp that the tech in the video calls a Bunsen burner. Denatured alcohol may be available in your area although it is banned in California. A good heat source (and fire hazard )but you’ll do better with a hot air setup.

 

[PigSquealer]

Good job. Yes heat helps. Soaking everything for a week in advance helps too. Bummer about grabbing the end wrong and smashing the slot. Rod can be straightened. But the slot is probably toast. Those are hand made.

 

[PigSquealer]

When it comes time to reassemble, I'll take it in to a local repair shop and see if they can fix it or make me a new one.

Inspecting the rod and the tubes, I can't see what was causing the problem. It looks like maybe it was just grime and build up of dirt maybe? I don't see anything wrong with the rod, and sliding all the pieces on the rod now doesn't cause any sticking.

Was most likely lacking oil/ lube. Heat & penetrant can loosen dry oil or grease. You had it part way out. Oiling between all joints and working the rod in-n-out would have been my first choice. Things get really loose once they’re clean.
Get the new rod and keys fitted now. Don’t fit to a old rod then replace it. The chances are the end is not repairable. Even if you open the slot back up the chances are it will crack off later.

 

[PigSquealer]

Working the rod in and out can be done with gentle taps. Just make sure if the pliers slip you don’t wipe anything out on tube.

 

[PigSquealer]

You don't necessarily have to replace the entire rod. I've cut a small piece of the correct diameter drill rod and brazed it onto the (shortened) end of a damaged rod. Then clean up the joint and make a new slot. Still working 25 years later.

Good fix if the OP can do.
Yep, I MIG welded a small section on just awhile back. I didn’t have any 3mm in stock and only needed end repair. Used 1/8” rod then machined down to .118/3mm

 

[PigSquealer]

Just make sure the cups are flat, round and appear parallel with the hinge tube. Assemble everything. Dry fit the pads to check the thickness for heel - toe fit.

 

[PigSquealer]

Well you’ve learned a lot in two weeks. Keep going! I wouldn’t use superglue for anything other than maybe gluing a pearl in. It’s hard to recover from mistakes. Go by your local auto parts store and see if they have a tube of PermaTex contact cement. Works well, dissolves with zippo fluid. And dispensing out of a small tube tip is easier than the big brush the Weldwood comes with. It’s enough to do about 20 saxophones. Weldwood usually dries up before you finish the container.

Felt, cork, tech cork. Each has their characteristic to any given location. Craftsman’s choice. Yamaha uses felt with pressure sensitive backing to regulate the pinky table. Under key feet also.
For this area pictured below(I know you’re learning the names of the parts) Cork or felt under the F sharp finger will work. Depends on how much space you end up with between the parts. Flex in the parts and what’s required to get the pad(s) closed. Everything in the lower stack closes the F sharp which intern closes the upper stack B-flat. Sometimes you want things real nice and solid with cork. Sometimes you want the flexibility cush of felt. The quality of the felt makes a huge difference also. The product from Yamaha is very firm. Felt from a local yardage store will be entirely different. It may also be a polyester blend instead of wool.

Rolled tone holes (RTH) are pretty rugged. Unless the horn has taken a knock on something I wouldn’t be concerned about levelness. When you dry fit the pads you’ll be able to view any issues. This is also why I suggest the soft feel tan pads they have a little more to give them Vs regular tan. Still stiffer than original. It’s the composition of the felt interior that used to give this characteristic.

As Turf mentioned it’s worth checking how the keys are centered over the tone holes. If you still have the original pads lay them out and check for any that are out of Center. Keep in mind sometimes you should move things and sometimes you better not. Things may be bent for a reason !

 

[PigSquealer]

The Conn reso pads extend over the rim of the cup. Traditional pads will be inside the rim. No big deal but the ones I circled you may want to investigate. If it’s a right left move your in luck. If it’s ffont to back it can get challenging. As long as there is some pad over the rim of the tone hole you’ll be fine.

The key oil should be fine. Especially if your tolerances are a little loose. Just run a clean pipe cleaner through the tube prior to dropping the oil in. One grain of dirt can ruin your day. Good job cleaning the tubes !

Cleaning the rods and a drill motor is OK. You just need to be real careful using sandpaper. In a heartbeat you can remove material and make your keys loose. I prefer buffing them down with 000 fine steel wool. Going up and down on the part. Turning in a drill motor you’re actually making any grooves deeper. That tight feeling was most likely polymerized oil residual. Also you need to be real careful with your drill chuck. I only lightly hand tighten. Using a chuck key you can actually emboss flat spots in the rod from the Chuck jaws. The keys will hang up on the flat spots.

 

[PigSquealer]

Oh ... and I plan to call MM tomorrow to discuss ordering the pads from them. Before I do though, it would be good if I could get a sanity check on this. Here are the sizes I've recorded. I assume I'd round up to the next available size so they fit tight, and use heat to iron the leather? Or is it better to round down instead and float the pad in the center of the cup if it's not tight against the perimeter?

View attachment 143819

And here are the pictures with the numbers ... I wish I knew the names of each tone hole so I could label them properly LOL

View attachment 143820

View attachment 143821

If a pad has a wrinkle in it to the point where you need to iron it. It’s too tight. You want it just to be a light press fit. Then be able to lift it out without having to hard pry it out. I usually drop a pad in and turn it over and flick it. If it stays in its tight enough. The reason is to give it a little bit of a water seal around the outer edge. Too loose and you’ll end up with shellac oozing out the sides.

pads come in half (0.5) millimeter increments. I usually measure in a X cross @ 10-4 & 2-8 o’clock. Not inline with key arm that attaches to the cup.
keep in mind these are hand made. The sizes will vary a little bit. That’s the beauty of MM. They will replaced I think four or five at no charge.
i’ve never ever measured the tone holes. Couldn’t tell you the size of one if you held a gun to my head.
From your measurements this is what I would round up or down to if this is mine. Count should be 25 pads