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12M under consideration

3K views 22 replies 11 participants last post by  lydian 
#1 · (Edited)
12M under consideration -- and now it's mine!

I have for evaluation a Conn 12M low Bb bari, s/n E45102, which seems to put it somewhere near 1965. I'm trying to determine its approximate value, and research on the Internet and this site leave me mostly unsure. I've read every post here that mentions 12M, but they are mostly about other vintages or they are discussions among people who already know the horns well.

The owner does not know what he wants for it, but he seems to think he's seen them go on ebay for about $1300. He wants it to go to a "good home," to be owned by someone who will play it, which describes me pretty well.

A 12M recently sold on ebay for $610, but it was sold "as is" and had not been play tested by the seller. Its serial number is E45143, which puts it close to the one I have. The only 12M up now is a naked lady, which this one is not, of course. I don't know whether that makes a difference.

This horn is in nice condition with the usual minor dents and lacquer wear you'd expect from a 40-year old horn. I don't know the criteria for assigning a percentage, but I've seen horns in similar condition described as 90%.

It seems to play well. I am not an experienced bari player, but I can get up and down on the horn without a lot of effort, intonation is good, and the tone is pleasing.

Given all that, what do the experts think about the rough order of magnitude fair market value of this horn?
 
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#2 ·
It is late for a 12M and the sought after models are the transitional models or late Chu Baris. These models get the big money and there is a difference tonally between them and the later models. As for market value, I don't know at all and I would suspect that it is worth what someone will pay for it. Do you have any pics? Is it bent in the top of the tube (most baris are Until you get them straightened out). Potentially, you have a killer horn here if you want to keep it.

Drop me a line via email with pics and I may be able to help you out with a sale Down Under.
 
#3 ·
I bought a '57ish 12m on ebay several years ago, advertised as an "estate sale, non-player" sale, as is. Price around $750.00 - I put about $50 into it once received and personally adjusted to my satisfaction, had the octave pad curved section on the neck lengthened to permit adjustment of playing angle without losing contact with the octave key mechanism, and ended up with a superbly playing bari for well under $1000.00. Such deals can turn out right, but good fortune may have a significant part in it.
 
#4 ·
The later 12Ms have the same bore as the vintage models, so they can still honk, but by this time they were considered intermediate horns. Then again, they don't command the prices of the pre-World War II 12M and Chus either. Give the horn a thorough wringing out...even better if you can compare it side-by-side with another baritone. If the horn is fully functional and ready to go, I'd make an offer around $1000. Forget whether it is as Conn, etc., check the fair market value prices of baris period...I think $1000 puts you right in the ballpark.
 
#5 ·
Hello
I just bought a nice Vintage Conn Bari Naked Lady Serial 619*** puts her in or around 1956.
Ive got a $1000.00 in her what with the price of the sax some adjustments a few small dings pulled out little stuff like that.
I cant say how she plays yet Im looking for a nice mouthpiece maybe a Meyer 5M any input on a good set up for her?

Thanks Steve
 
#6 ·
Here's an update five months later.. The owner of the 12M and I never came to terms. He wanted more money than I wanted to spend. I turned the horn over to another player to evaluate. It came back here last week. The owner came by last week. He picked up my nickle-plated 1920 Buescher True Tone tenor and played it a while. I rarely play the horn. He fell in love with it and took it home that night instead of his 12M. Unless he changes his mind, we have a trade. I think that's a good deal for both of us. I had about $900 in the tenor including a complete overhaul, and I wasn't playing it. I don't know what I could have sold it for and don't want to know. I really like this Conn 12M. Win-win, I hope.
 
#9 ·
Hi everybody ! Years after it seems like prices keep going up ! Can anyone tell me about an average price in $ or in € (I’m in France) for a 1965 (E something) Conn 12 M bari in very good condition (all pads being changed) and totally overhauled recently? I’m about to buy one as my first owned bari, and two 12M popped up around € 2.000 on the market. Is it fair for a 12M of these years, which were not the best of the brand (not the worst either though)? In advance thank you so munch for your help !
 
#10 ·
In this part of the world a true overhaul on an old Baritone will run you about $2000.
But that gets you a basically new horn not just one with e few new pads and an oil change.
I won’t pay for someone else’s so called overhaul because I know it will be inferior to what I’ve had done.
Even overhauled I wouldn’t pay much for a later 12M (regardless of how good it is) because it is still a horn that isn’t going to bring much in the future.
Early rolled tone hole models are a different ballpark and cannot be compared.
For me around $1200 if in good playing condition and in good straight shape.
They’re nice horns for sure, but not ones that people pay big dollars for.
 
#11 ·
@B Flat thank you for your comment ! Do you think rolled tone holes really make a difference ? Apart from requiring specific (expensive) pads? I play modern Yanagisawa on tenor and soprano, and I'm looking for a good bari which would be my first vintage horn. I know I will probably struggle at first with the old keywork, that's why I want to try the horn before I buy it, and there is not much choice around me...
 
#13 ·
Rolled tone holes don’t require specific expensive pads at all.
All they require is a technician to do his job correctly and not try to take short cuts.
I don’t think the rolled tone holes make much if any difference to the tone etc.
It more that in the period that they were produced with rolled tone holes their overall build quality was of a higher level.
 
#15 ·
Hi @lydian and thank you @B Flat for your infos !
Well my repairman told me there was specific pads for rolled tone holes... so it just made me think that they were probably more expensive because they were specific :)
I get your point, it does not really improve or add warmth to the sound in itself but it is associated with a period of really good manufacture, right?
What do you think of the E series of the 12M model? It's late but not yet the « bad years » of Conn, is it? It corresponds to my father's birth year so I took it as a sign from the Universe haha ! But seriously I don't know anything about vintage saxes, plus, I did not see the sax yet, I will in a few days !
So thank you in advance for your answer !
 
#17 ·
@lydian what does « IMO » means? In My Opinion? Sorry I'm French ☺
Ok so do you mean that the sax player is the most important part of the game? Or do you mean that the ergonomics was **** but that the sax still sounded great? Did you sell your 12M? What brand do you play now on the bari? I used to play a Yanagisawa B901 at school and loved it, it was really comfortable and to me it sounded great. But I can't afford it...
 
#19 · (Edited)
Yes, my opinion. Sorry for that.

Ergos were fine except for the octave key. I was never able to get it in sync with the G key. I would have to constantly remember to start pressing G before I pressed the octave key, which I don't have to think about on any of my other horns. Sax did sound great.

I sold it and got a Kessler Solist which is a very affordable copy of the B901. The Conn was fine, but I wanted a low A, high F# and modern pinky table.

I should add that the Kessler is just the latest chapter in my 40 years of playing bari on and off. I've played too many to remember. In the 70s and 80s, I played whatever the school had. In the 90s and 00s, it was whatever I could borrow. I was finally able to afford my first bari about 20 years ago. I worked my way up from the cheapest I could afford to one that checked all my boxes, the current Kessler. No matter what I played - Beuscher, Conn, Bundy, Selmer, Yamaha, etc., I was able to get the sound I wanted out of it. To me, it's just a big hunk of metal that you get out whatever you put in. Of course each has its own character, and some are easier to play than others.
 
#18 ·
Some techs will recommend the softer styled pads for rolled tone holes; the ones of which I got from Music Medic for my Conn soprano were no more expensive than the regular ones.

And I miss the OP, Al Stevens, of whom I've met at least a couple times at past Symposiums. He was up there in age, but I lost track of him over the years. If he hasn't passed, I wish him well.
 
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