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Discussion Starter #1
I'm about to get my '35 10m overhauled. I was wondering what pad/resonator combo people here use on their 10m's. My 6m that abadcliche worked on has musicmedic precision pads, and flat metal resos. How does that combo work? I'm open to anything really, so give me some suggestions and why please.

Thanks!
 

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Thin pads (.165) and flat metal resonators work best in my experience and experimentations.

I really don't care for the original Reso-pads however, because I have witnessed far to many premature wears and tears on otherwise good condition pads right at the rim where the metal ring rests.

I prefer a pad of equal thickness and the same flat metal resonator, sans the ring, both for durability and to give more adjustment possibilities while floating in the pad upon installation.
 

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I was fortunate to try my 10M with a brand new pad job w/ flat metal resonators (how I got it) and with the same pads, but with Noyek resonators (how it ended up). The Noyeks gave it much more of a live sound to my senses. Whether it was because they were bigger or shaped differently, well... let the scientists argue that one. I just like 'em on that horn (and a Zephyr alto too).
 

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I'm not sure what the acoustic science breaks down to regarding the "how and why" with the Noyek Hollywood resonators, but if you want a horn with a LOT of volume and punch, these do indeed tend to ramp up those qualities in every horn I have tried utilizing them. I have them installed in my The Martin Committee Baritone, and I can blow walls down with that setup.

This has been my experience with other makes and models I have compared with and without them.

In a Conn 10M, that setup might make it more suitable for a Rock/R&B application.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Right now with very very very old pads and mixed resos the horn has a HUGE sound..I don't think I need any more power. I'll ask Dave Hoskins and his tech, Tom, who is doing the overhaul, what he normally does for the horns. I'll probably go with some flat metal resos just like my 6m. That thing has POWER!
 

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In my experience you must use pads of the same thickness as the factory installed -- otherwise it just does not work, at least this is my experience on a recent 10M (1964) repad. My instructor tells me that each tonehole must be treated differently using a thick or a thin pad as needed.

Save yourself a lot of aggravation and use the same thickness pad as used originally. You could bend all the keys to use thinner pads but why? Most modern pads sold for Conn are thin so you will need pad shims to get the thickness right

but I could be wrong !!
 

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The current .160 to .165 thickness pads install to seat at the same thickness/height as the Reso-pads originally installed on these horns, without the need to re-level or otherwise bend the key cups on a properly adjusted horn.

Vintage King, Conn, and Martin horns all require a thinner pad such as these.
 

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saxismyaxe said:
In a Conn 10M, that setup might make it more suitable for a Rock/R&B application.
Especially with a very open, high baffled RPC. I use an older rollover RPC to darken it up a bit for dixieland.
 

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I like the Reso-pads a lot but I recently tried a 10M with 'Roo pads and Resotech flat silver resonators and it sounded amazing.
 

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My 288K 10M came equipped with thin pads and Noyek (Hollywood) resos, not oversized. I was somehow worried to have just a screamer with me and I was fortunately wrong. Differently from what I expected, my unit is REALLY warm-sounding as much as being up to par or nearly so with my favorite Martin committee.
So I think Noyek resos provide added volume not at the expense of tone.
My tech thinks they also positively affect the response.
 

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Many techs say what they think the customer wants to hear.

What I read in this forum, that is attributed to Noyeks, seems to cover the whole conflicting spectrum of what different players want. Therefore I conclude that Noyeks have built in mind readers, and perform according to the whims of the player.

Or could it be that other factors - many of them - are at work here. :)

I know little about them. Never had a customer request them. Never come across an instrument with them installed. Just asking. Just how common are they outside the environment of SOTW? What about top recording artists and the very top players... Have most of them embraced the regularly SOTW-flaunted superiority of Noyeks? Just where is reality?
 

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Gordon (NZ) said:
Many techs say what they think the customer wants to hear.

What I read in this forum, that is attributed to Noyeks, seems to cover the whole conflicting spectrum of what different players want. Therefore I conclude that Noyeks have built in mind readers, and perform according to the whims of the player.
Is THAT why they're so expensive?
 

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Ahh Gordon, argumentum ad populum.
I liked your precise exact set-up comparison argument better than this latest fallacy, though personally, for reasons already stated, I had transcended that example long ago.

No one is flaunting a superiority. Just stating a preference.
Perhaps one day you'll know more than little about them. Till then, your healthy skepticism is duly noted.
 

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"I had transcended that example long ago. "
Winnum par decreeum personalum. Superium flauntus? :)
 

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Gordon (NZ) said:
"I had transcended that example long ago. "
Winnum par decreeum personalum. Superium flauntus? :)
No, what I meant by that was that we've already heard the argument that it is the set-up done with a resonator change that is the true cause of any improvement claimed by the player. To an extent, I agreed with you, but in my example, within a two week period the same tech set up the horn both times prior to me testing it, and the only changes were the resonators. You had then argued that it wasn't possible for a tech to set up a horn the exact same way twice. I then found a post where you claimed to set up three different horns in an identical manner to make your own subjective point; thus challenging the basis for your argument, and yes... transcending it.

As I said before, I don't know if it's the size or the shape, but on two of my horns, I like the results. The techs I know that actually use these resonators in their trade, all recognize their effects. And not everyone is going to like these effects, but to deny they even exist without any sort of practical experience with them, despite a wealth of subjective reports otherwise, well... it just seems a bit cranky. :)
 

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Grumps said:
No, what I meant by that was that we've already heard the argument that it is the set-up done with a resonator change that is the true cause of any improvement claimed by the player. To an extent, I agreed with you, but in my example, within a two week period the same tech set up the horn both times prior to me testing it, and the only changes were the resonators. You had then argued that it wasn't possible for a tech to set up a horn the exact same way twice. I then found a post where you claimed to set up three different horns in an identical manner to make your own subjective point; thus challenging the basis for your argument, and yes... transcending it.
Now that you summarise what you perceived, I see where there may be misunderstanding. I don't think it is impossible for a tech to set up two horns leakproof and with similar venting, it is highly likely that small leaks remain after setting up a horn, especially from the G# area (for the lowest notes), seeing that because of the flexing of metal and the 'give' in silencing materials, this pad gets rather less force transferred to it for sealing purposes than do other pads. Even at the best of times, the keys that are operated by others (eg Bb, F# etc) may seal more poorly than others. Setting up a sax is not an exact science, but more a matter of best compromise, which has room for slight differences each time it is done.

I think it is indeed likely that I set up the 3 saxes in question fairly similarly. The player found the different finishes to play indistinguishably, after a day of demonstrating them all. Of course it is possible that by chance, differences that finishes made in the way the saxes played, were perfectly compensated for by the particular differences in the way they were set up, so that the result was that all three played the same. But that really is stretching the realms of possibility.

"As I said before, I don't know if it's the size or the shape, but on two of my horns, I like the results. The techs I know that actually use these resonators in their trade, all recognise their effects. And not everyone is going to like these effects, but to deny they even exist without any sort of practical experience with them, despite a wealth of subjective reports otherwise, well... it just seems a bit cranky. :)[/quote]

I have not denied that they may exist. What I have done is wonder if the effects noticed may b e from other factors. One of these is possibly changes in set up. Another is the huge area of human subjectivity, particularly auto-sugestion....

Say I develop a visually appealing, exotic-looking new resonator, and market it with all manner of questionable acoustic science that is plausible to the masses, and put a high price on it. And perhaps (as with Straubinger flute pads) add to their mystique by making them available from registered technicians who have attended special installation courses.... Of COURSE players are going to expect something that at least sounds different, and likely better. Otherwise those same people will feel they have been made fools of, especially parting with more money than they should have. This is simply part of being human. So it is only sensible to see any anecdotal claims made about my new resonators in the sobering light of this human condition.

I am not knocking Noyeks. I am applying just a little healthy scepticism, especially as the claims of what people get from them are so varied, including the odd claim of no difference at all.

At one end of a spectrum I would irrationally accept at face value, all positive claims about them, and at the other end, I would irrationally dismiss them. Surely I am not to be condemned for highlighting the fact that all the testing I know of has included huge elements of human subjectivity.

I would welcome reports of comparative testing done in a scientific manner. Until then, I will entertain the possibility that they are in a similar category as the Accubore clarinet barrel, so well marketed a few years ago, and which so many earnest players swore by, but now it is difficult to find any still being used. When I was a teen, if one did not have a crystal mouthpiece on one's Buffet clarinet, then one just wasn't a real calrinetist... How many crystal mouthpieces do you see now?

That is the way it is with the majority of novelties, or simply points of difference, marketed to musicians, who seem to be a rather gullible lot, and who in some countries, have the luxury of sufficient wealth to buy based on belief founded on clever marketing.
 

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1. I attribute just as much subjectivity to myself as I do to anybody else.
2. Devoting that much time and money is not high in my priorities.
3. Contentment is not the fulfilment of what you want, but the realisation of how much you already have.
4. I could just try a whole lot of things (and did try the Accubore barrel and crystal mouthpiece, along with the hand-made flute), which is exactly what the marketer's profits are relying upon. I save this experimental area of my life for other things of more personal interest, and what I regard as having higher likelihood of pleasing, for example the Eugenia Uvalha I have just planted. But I can assure you I will do my best not to talk myself into liking its fruit if they turn out to be only suitable for jam.
 

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I've recently installed the 'Noyek' style resonators on a 10M and the horn played great. I put my own version of the resonators on (Maestro Airtight) but they are very similar only with curved edges. I have also done the classic shape on different 10M's in Silver, Gold (plated) and bare aluminum. I certainly don't see any problem with these resonators on a 10M. I did not play the horns before we overhauled them.

Gordon, to answer your question, I don't think this is a SOTW thing. I have a pretty active network of techs that I talk with both on and off forums and there are many techs using these resonators. Many who do not post on SOTW. I don't know of a pro sax shop in the US that does not at least offer them. This is in part due to US repairers. Based on my experience, shops in the US are much more likely to purchase pads without resos and install them in house. Many techs outside the US (not all) that I talk to do not own rivet splitters. They just buy the pads with resos installed.


Whatever you call these resos, they have been around for a long time, almost as long as saxophone resonators. They are more and more popular as players strive for brighter sounds. Certainly they are well tested, albeit undocumented.

Made by various suppliers and called Noyeks, Naujoks, Noyaks, Silva-wave, waffle, star, Hollywood, and (my personal favorite) Maestro Classic, they were originally made from Aluminum and some are still offered this way. A few suppliers have started to offer them in brass. Over time the Aluminum ones get pitted and funky. With only two exceptions, these resonators have remained unchanged for many years.

The 2 exceptions:
1. In 1999 Rex Bullock started making them from Brass. He called them Silva-wave. And offered them in Brass and Aluminum.

2. In 2006, I redesigned them with beveled edges and made more sizes, some quite large for the Baritone and Bass Saxophones. I call them Maestros.

Here is the patent info for these resos with dates.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ORNnAAAAEBAJ&dq
 
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