[evilfeline007]

I've been playing with a RICO 1.5 with a YAS23 and whatever mouthpiece it is that comes with it.

Having a HORRIBLE biting problem. I solved it a little bit thanks to this forum by adapting the no-embouchure-embouchure (as in not curling my lip over my teeth).


I'm having a hard time controlling the sound... I'm getting a lot of squeaks above middle C and the occasional foghorn growl in the lower register.

I know its an embouchure problem that my lip isnt strong enough so I start bringing up my jaw and my teeth start rubbing into my lip.

I want to try a size 2 reed (because I've read that using too soft a reed can cause biting also) but my teacher said that though I might find it more comfortable, I will cheat myself out of developing my embouchure. He said I need to stay on the 1.5 for at least 2 months.

I literally can only practise for 20 minutes... then hours later i'll try again and last for 5 to 10.

So the question I guess is... What do you guys think?

 

[Soul Patch Paul]

For my part, if I had a teacher with any credibility I would go with what that teacher told me. He is there hearing and seeing your technique and has a perspective on your playing that no one online is ever going to have. Making changes is difficult but they have always gotten easier with consistent effort over time, at least in my own experience. Best of luck and keep practicing!

 

[evilfeline007]

I guess my problem is I'm not sure my teacher has all his cups in the cupboard. He told me to go home and play the particular piece for my mom and was shocked when I told him I don't live with my parents.

When I went into my first lesson, I told him I'd only had the sax for a couple of days but that I managed to play a c-major scale and ode to joy in that time. Then, he was amazed that I could finger the G,A and B so easily. He was also perplexed that I could read music despite me telling him that I also play the trumpet, piano, cello, guitar and recorder. He's really, really old and the ONLY teacher i could find in town.

Finally, I told him that my lip was hurting and my teeth were breaking through skin and he said that my embouchure isn't strong enough and the problem would resolve.

I'm not sure if he really hears my problems because he plays along with me. He's very encouraging and tells me I'm a natural and that I produce an impressive tone for a complete beginner....but I dont know if I trust his opinion lol.

 

[bandmommy]

It sounds to me like you've got absolutely NO embouchure at all.
Squeals and growls usually come from having no support what so ever on the reed.
Maybe you had better ask your teacher to demonstrate the embouchure they would like you to use.
Teeth on the top of the mouthpiece, lip slightly curled over the lower teeth, and corners pulled in to form a loose 'O' is the one I teach my beginning sax students.
They all start out on a 2 and not a 1.5 reed.

 

[evilfeline007]

that's exactly what he demonstrated and he said I was doing it right but I know it's too tight and I'm biting

 

[alljoe]

in my sons middle school, they are wanting them to have a box of Vandoren 3 strength reeds to start. what is the rationale of that? i started on 1.5 or 2 and moved up to 3's sometime later. it seems my 11 year old has trouble getting enough pressure for the 3.

 

[differencetone]

Some people use the double lip embouchure. That's how I started. It's more difficult but there will be no biting. Sax isn't easy. That is why I like it.

 

[Nefertiti]

I start all my beginner students on 2.5 reeds and Yamaha 4C mouthpieces. I've never had a beginner with a problem with this. I've had lots of beginners that have had problems with too soft of a reed like a 1.5.............once in awhile I'll get a student that has trouble blowing and I'll start him on a 2 but I move him to a 2.5 after a month or two.


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[derekjustjazz]

Hi you just need to make a good seal with your lips and might be getting confused by tucking the top lip under your teeth which = very sore lip!

Breath from belly up and build you chops up by playing long clear sustained notes without braying like a donkey and no need to blow too hard.

First Check that your setting up the reed correctly.

Good luck

Deejay

 

[daigle65]

I start all my beginner students on 2.5 reeds and Yamaha 4C mouthpieces....

Same here.

 

[Agent27]

I started as on a Rico Royal 3 as a 10 year old. In retrospect, it was too hard and I should've been on a 2.5. IIRC, you're in your 20s and already play trumpet. I'd fully expect a 1.5 to feel way too soft. I'd expect it to feel soft to most 10 year old beginning band students too.

Honestly, has anybody heard that you can develop your embouchure but playing a softer reed before? If anything, I've heard the opposite, to play a slightly harder reed. In any case, I think that it's best to play the reed strength that's best suited for the air support you have. You'll develop your embouchure better if you're playing the appropriate strength. I don't think playing a softer reed than that will do you any favors.

So I would probably try some 2's (maybe even 2.5's) and just don't tell him. Let him tell you if he thinks you sound better or not. It's like a blind hearing test.

 

[daigle65]

... thanks to this forum by adapting the no-embouchure-embouchure (as in not curling my lip over my teeth)...

It sounds to me like you've got absolutely NO embouchure at all.
Squeals and growls usually come from having no support what so ever on the reed......

bandmommy is right, you need to support your lip with your teeth. That doesn't mean bitting.
Think of it this way: your teeth are the box-spring and your lip is the mattress.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Honestly, has anybody heard that you can develop your embouchure but playing a softer reed before?

Yes, absolutely. You need a good embouchure to play a softer reed and get a good sound. I used to use 4s, now I usee 2s or 2.5s, and have had to develop a stronger embouchure to get the same range as I did with the 4s.

But in this case I'm not so sure, after all we aren't there, we aren't the teacher.

I hate to give contrary advice to what someone's teacher is saying, they are in a better position to diagnosing the issue as opposed to some bloke on the internet such as I.

However the OP does appear to be having doubts about the teacher. I can't comment on that, all i can say is if the teacher is good listen to him, if he isn't listen to all the (differing) opinions you'll get here and choose one of them. Or (ideally) just get a better teacher.

 

[BarrySachs]

I start all my beginner students on 2.5 reeds and Yamaha 4C mouthpieces. I've never had a beginner with a problem with this. I've had lots of beginners that have had problems with too soft of a reed like a 1.5.............once in awhile I'll get a student that has trouble blowing and I'll start him on a 2 but I move him to a 2.5 after a month or two.

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I agree with Steve. I haven't had any beginning students in many years, but I used to start them on regular Rico 2½ on a Brilhart 3*. That's what I started on as well.

 

[jbtsax]

There is some excellent advice given already in this thread. A #2 Rico on a Yamaha 4C for two or three weeks and then a #2 1/2.

-I would recommend playing long tones on the mouthpiece and neck apart from the saxophone watching a clock with a second hand.

-Put your top teeth 5/8" on to the top of the mouthpiece.

-Roll your bottom lip over the bottom teeth just enough to cover them.

-Form the embouchure by saying "EE" - "EU" (like you) making a tug of war with the muscles, the "EU's" win pushing in more at the corners.

-Set the embouchure tightness so that the neck + mp produces an Ab concert (F on the alto).

-Play long tones at mf and then f holding notes for 10, 15, 20, 30 seconds on the clock.

-When you can play the neck + mouthpiece on an Ab concert 30 seconds with a full beautiful tone and good control go to the sax.

-On the sax practice the same long tones using the same embouchure, this time starting on 5th line F.

-When 5th line F sounds good, go down to E, D, C and so on---keep it at mf or f using LOTS of air.

-If the inside of the bottom lip gets sore buy some EZO denture cushions, cut an oval about 1 1/4" long, heat with hot water, and form over the bottom teeth to make a cushion for the lip to rest against.

Let us know how this works out for you when you try it.

 

[Nefertiti]

The other thing I have seen is many students who come to me and they have been playing a 1.5-2 reed for a number of years. They usually have very weak air support and can be quite flat up high. It's usually a battle at that point to try to get them to blow with a stronger fuller airstream because they now are in the habit of using very little air.


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[LateNiteSax]

The Yamaha mouthpieces play well, but the weird composite material they are made from is so weak, so soft, that many students make tooth grooves on the beak within just a couple of months of use, and after a year the mouthpiece is unusable because of the deep grooves. There are equally good performing pieces that are made from a much harder plastic that holds up well for years.

Start students on a Rico #2.

 

[differencetone]

You might want to try a different brand or a synthetic reed. They never squeak for me.

 

[jbtsax]

The Yamaha mouthpieces play well, but the weird composite material they are made from is so weak, so soft, that many students make tooth grooves on the beak within just a couple of months of use, and after a year the mouthpiece is unusable because of the deep grooves. There are equally good performing pieces that are made from a much harder plastic that holds up well for years.

Start students on a Rico #2.

That is an interesting observation about the different grades of plastic. I'll have to watch for that. I have never seen teeth marks go all the way through a mouthpiece and I have seen hundreds of them.

I have a different take. I love to see mouthpiece teeth grooves, not "teeth tracks" if they are in the correct spot on top of the mouthpiece. The reason why is that they help the student to lock in to the same position on the mouthpiece every time they play which develops consistency. For the same reason I wish they would bring back the old "belt style" neckstrap that once adjusted to the optimum length remains the same day after day and can be changed when the student grows taller.

I have sharp top teeth that are not even, and I form teeth grooves on a new mouthpiece in a matter of weeks. Once that happens the mouthpiece is custom fit to my embouchure and it feels comfortable every time I play. I have always lost or broken mouthpieces before going through the beak. The only downside to this is it makes the mouthpiece impossible to sell to someone else since it has my dental imprint.

 

[JL]

I've been playing with a RICO 1.5 with a YAS23 and whatever mouthpiece it is that comes with it.

Having a HORRIBLE biting problem. I solved it a little bit thanks to this forum by adapting the no-embouchure-embouchure (as in not curling my lip over my teeth).

I'm having a hard time controlling the sound... I'm getting a lot of squeaks above middle C and the occasional foghorn growl in the lower register.

I know its an embouchure problem that my lip isnt strong enough so I start bringing up my jaw and my teeth start rubbing into my lip.

What do you guys think?

I think that you should listen to your teacher for now. All the problems you outline here will NOT be solved simply by increasing the reed strength (or switching to a plastic reed!). If you were using a reed that was too hard, I'd say definitely go down in size, but not the other way around. I suspect your teacher wants to address a biting issue, which will likely get worse if you go to a harder reed right now. In a couple of months hopefully you'll be able to play with a relaxed embouchure on the soft reed, then moving up to a #2 would be a good idea and likely result in a better sound. But not until and unless you solve the biting issue. Just my take on it....