Vintage or New for an Intermediate Player?

[Butter Knife]

Hi all. I'm a brand new member with just one post under my belt (you know - the introductory one in the New Members area). If I'm posting this in the wrong place, or am adding to the proliferation of nearly identical threads, then I apologize. In either case, please forgive the newbie. I'm also going to apologize in advance for the length of this post. Since it's my first, really, it's necessary to give a little bit of background.

I am currently looking for both an alto and a tenor. I have only ever owned and played one horn - a King 613 alto. My parents bought it for me when I started out in band, half a lifetime ago, and I've just never bothered to upgrade. Until now.

I'm torn, based on what I've read here on SOTW, as well as my own interests and preferences, between vintage and new(er). I am a low-level intermediate player in my own estimation. Definitely not a beginner, but lightyears away from the pros who post on here. My only playing is with my church band, so I'm not involved in anything too performance-oriented. Still - I always want to play my best, and know that I sounded good on any given day.

The style of music we play is mostly up-tempo and bright - contemporary - but also softer and more tradtional at times (although definitely the minority). Thus, I'm probably wanting a good all-round horn for both the alto and the tenor. I might decide, though, to dedicate each one to one role or the other (the bigger, brighter sound or the sweeter, darker sound), depending on what advice I might receive from any of you on this matter.

So here are some of the choices available to me at the present time on eBay (knowing full-well the pros and cons of searching on Ebay for an instrument, without trying it first):

ALTO:

1925 Conn NWII (Chu), silver plated, w/ new resopads, freshly overhauled
1932 Conn 6M (transitional), silver plated, "naked lady" engraving, repadded, near-mint condition
1942 Conn 6M, laquered brass, all original (incl. pads)
1956 Conn 6M, laquered brass, completely overhauled, no RTH

1928 Buescher True Tone, new roo pads, full-body engraving (rare)

1966 Buffet Super Dynaction, original "sparkle" laquer, repadded

2001-2005 Cannonball Big Bell Global,
2005+ Cannonball Big Bell Stone, 2 necks (brass & silver)

TENOR:

1920 Buescher True Tone, gold plated, completely overhauled, engraving slightly worn (possibly from buffing)

1959 Martin Magna, repadded

New Kessler Custom Deluxe, black nickel & brass w/ full-body engraving

New Phil Barone Mac 8

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I know this is long, and I do apologize for that. Any help whatsoever is appreciated, if anyone has any suggestions for me based on their knowledge of the attributes of these horns in relation to the type of sound I'm after (as described above). Two good all-round horns? Brighter alto, sweeter tenor? Sweeter alto, bigger-sounding tenor? Vintage or new?

All comments are appreciated. Thanks.

[gary]

First off, you don't know how refreshing it is to have someone give full, detailed and literate information when starting a thread. Too many times they are vague and incomplete and the OPs expect you to somehow be clairvoyant.

Now let's see how long it is before someone advises you against buying off of ebay, your "knowing full-well the pros and cons of searching on Ebay for an instrument, without trying it first", notwithstanding.

My preference would be for one of the Conn 6Ms and I'd hold off for a matching 10M (tenor) so that both of your horns are relatively compatible. Although the saxes you've listed are all good choices. I can't speak to the tenors because I've never played one.

As an alternative, if you're looking for a matching set of modern saxes that are compatible with each other, I can recommend checking out the TK Melody saxes http://www.viking-instruments.com/Sa...4/Default.aspx. I would almost bet that, if you bought a pair, you could get a discount. Myself and modman have both written reviews of them that you can find and read (try advanced search, post titles, TK Melody).

But as far as older, used, if you can get them in good shape for many of the ones you've listed these are good bangs for the buck. Check out a "The Martin" tenor also. Excellent saxes and the prices have not gone stupid.

[MyMartinTenor]

Yeah, man, that's really really tough to respond to. Ok, let me try to help w/ "bright/dark" etc, and then do vintage versus new, and then we can go from there.

Most (not all, but most) of the "contemporary" / "bright" / "dark" / "sweet" etc comes from the mouthpiece + embouchure/player, not the sax itself. So looking at horns only addresses one part of the equation there, and the minor part, frankly. No matter which of the horns above you select, you can get it to sound contemporary, bright, dark, sweet, or any of the other adjectives you described with good mouthpiece selection and good practice. The sax is the least important part of that puzzle. So from that angle, all of the horns you list above will be PERFECT!

As to "vintage v. new" -- the key advantages to vintage are (IMO, and others will disagree, and these are over-generalizations):

a. flexibility in sound (debatable, but I can draw more sounds from a nice old Buescher than a fancy new Selmer);
b. often, depth of sound (why I play Martins);
c. power (sorry, but a 10M whips a YTS-62 in brute force, IMO);
d. Resale value (assuming we're talking about a new modern horn. A new horn depreciates immediately when not "new" -- used modern or good vintage will retain its value, and not suffer the "new car off the lot" effect if you decide you want to trade in later)

Advantages to a new horn are:

i. Maintenance (if you don't have a good tech nearby, stay modern)
ii. Intonation (IMO, vintage horns are perfectly playable in tune, but the player has to learn his horn and its quirks)
iii. Mouthpiece versatility (many old horns are picky about chamber volume, etc)
iv. ERGONOMICS (maybe the most important factor, modern horns feel better in the hands, typically. If that's really important to you, you need modern).

You have to balance those factors, and its really really personal. For me, I play vintage Martins, because I've found them the best fit. But you may find that the left hand pinky stacks on Martins are just too clumsy for you (they are a bit clumsy -- a trade off I accept).

Finally, you've neglected to mention budget at all as a consideration. If its not, congratulations! But that sparkle-lac SBA is NOT going for the same price as the lacquered, original pads Conn 6M, just FYI. If you've got a budget, some of those horns may be available to you, or not.

[Butter Knife]

Well would ya' look at that! Guys with THOUSANDS of posts under their belts replied to someone with 2! That's what's so great about this site. No "newbie prejudice". Thanks guys. Not a bad way for me to get started.

I'll sort of respond to each of you at once since you've both made good observations for me. As far as dealing with eBay, I've heard that depending on the price point, you can all but eliminate the worries when dealing with reputable sellers, who - albeit they'll be asking more for their horns (because they're better, that's why, and usually overhauled and ready to play) - are nevertheless safe to deal with. The same way you guys have built credibility on here, the same goes for the reputable sellers on eBay. Look for a "steal of a deal", though, and you can expect to get what you're paying for (or NOT paying for, for that matter).

As far as the Conns go, I've always wanted one, for as long as I can remember. Recently I read someone's post on here saying something to the effect that while you can certainly get the same sound out of any sax (i.e. it's mostly me, and not the equipment ...) - and MyMartinTenor pointed that out just now as well - the mental aspect is hard to dismiss. In other words, if a person THINKS he's going to sound better on a certain make/model or vintage of horn, then he quite likely will. A veritable saxophone placebo effect, if you will. Who knows - maybe it's the reason I listed more Conns than any other make in my short list.

Admittedly, the mouthpiece I play with is very poor. Student level plastic. While I've stated that I'm far from being a really good player, I'm O.K. But with that mouthpiece, I've always thought that I'm somehow not even getting a true sax sound ... more of a unique sound that I've never really heard from anyone else, to be honest. People in my church tell me they like the way I sound, but I've never liked it as much as the sound I hear from others. I've always thought that it was likely due to the mouthpiece, and then to a lesser extent the horn itself. I never really thought of it as being me. All the most expert contributors whose posts I've read, though, have all expressed what you just reiterated. That it IS in fact ME producing that sound.

Flexibility, depth, and power are all important attributes to me. Resale value is not, as I do not suffer from GAS. Just look at how long I've hung onto that crappy King! Whatever I buy from this point forward is not only going to represent a significant improvement, but will also likely be with me for the rest of my life. The next time it changes hands will probably be through an estate sale.

So score several points in favor of "vintage" for the time being.

As far as maintenance is concerned - good point. I've considered that, so I've been mostly looking at horns (on eBay) that have been overhauled by reputable techs - not sold as is. I only know of one really good shop in my city with an experienced tech, but I don't know him personally and have never taken my horn there. I don't know what his level of experience is with vintage horns. It may be minimal, or it may be reasonably good. I'll have to find out.

As far as ergos go, I can't really say what I'd be happy with there. I have no baseline other than the one I now own. I may hate the feel of a vintage horn, or I may not be bothered by it at all. I've read the posts of some who claim to prefer it. Different strokes, I guess.

Finally … budget. No, I’m not independently wealthy; yes - I HAVE been saving, and have not been buying one horn after another until I need to start selling them off to pay the bills. So to me, the difference between $1000 and $1500 or $2000 is not that important. But generally I would say that I’m trying to stay under $3500 total for the pair. A little under – good. A lot under – better.

Thanks again you guys. Not only did I benefit from being given some valuable feedback, but I just plain enjoy being able to chat “sax” with other people. It’s new for me. Thanks for welcoming me to the party.

[Chulove]

Both posts give you excellent advice.
I was in a similar situation. I had played Alto in high school in the 50s and decided to start playing again around two years ago. I had no idea what sax to get. I was intrigued with the descriptions of the vintage Conns in ebay.
I first bought a '23 that was overhauled and played fine. But the bug got to me and I was soon buying others (see below). I had three of my horns overhauled by LowKey Music in SC for a reasonable price and they play great.
I also bought a sop and a tenor from pro shops that were in perfect condition. Then I got the bug to buy a new sax and I just received my Yanagisawa A992. I play my Conns in community bands. They have a good big sound and are just fun to play. My SBA, SML and Yanagisawa I use to play classical at home every day just for fun and to improve my skills.
So as far as advice goes ---
I think the safest and easiest is to buy a reconditioned sax from a reputable dealer (such as Saxquest). You don't have to deal with any possible problems that might be expensive or go through the trouble of getting the sax overhauled yourself. If I had to choose one horn, I think I would choose a Conn Transitional (1930 - 35).

[gary]

Butter Knife, those lists you wrote are pretty much horns with a darker, mainly "American" sound. Do you know that this is what you want, vs, say, a more compact and different Selmer sound, or are you just listing saxes that you have researched and read are good saxes? Because there's a difference.

Your comment about the placebo effect might be true to an extent - I am a great believer that if the mind truly knows what it wants, the body will follow - but only to an extent. There's truth in "it's the player, not the equipment", but also that you can find the sound you have in your head easier and quicker with the right equipment. So - are you sure you want a darker, spread Americanish sound and not a more compact, focused Selmer-like sound?

About Conns, my first tenor was a mid-60s Conn 10M; big sound, fat bottom; very good horn. I then got a late 40s Lady Face and loved it. A couple of years later, I got a matching Lady Face alto. These made a fantastic combination. But a few caveats for you to consider.

- the 10M intonation had more quirks than any modern sax I've played, with i.e. G2 being excessively sharp.
- additionally, I never got comfortable with the LH Pinky finger table.
- on the 6M intonation, G2 to C3 were pretty sharp.

On a plus side, the pitches were not "slotted", that is there was a lot of play in where you could place the center of pitch on them. This is + and - . It gives a player with some chops, greater flexibility with the pitches. The downside is that someone who can't control pitches as well may very well have some intonation problems.

I went round and round with tone on my tenors. Like I wrote, I started out with two 10Ms. Then I switched to a Yamaha Z and never could get used to the more focused, lighter sound. So I bought a Keilwerth, which gave me a nice dark, "American" sound but with better intonation and more modern keywork. Ironically, I then got another Z, then a Selmer Serie III (a great horn BTW) and finally came "home" to that more spread, darker sound and am now playing another Keilwerth. BTW, you might want to check a few of them out for the reasons I've just alluded to.

Regarding altos, I've only had two in recent years, the 6M and now a Selmer Serie II, very different. I'll hang on to the Selmer because it does what I want it to (to include performing classical sax) but if I had the money, I'd probably add a 6M or a JK, for that alternative sound.

Hope this gives you a few more things to consider. Have a good weekend.

[FremontSax]

old or new?

I think first thing is to find a good tech. Like buying a car you want a good mechanic to help take care of it.

Without a good tech you can buy a new but poorly set up horn or an old broken horn and they both won't play.

With a good tech, you can buy an old horn (with the right to return it) and have an experienced set of hands, eyes and ears help you to figure out if it is worth keeping and what the real cost of it is.

A shop that lacks a good tech, will take your money and not be able to set your horn up leaving you with an expensive piece of equipment that doesn't play.

Real cost being the initial payment plus any work reasonably needed to put it in good playing shape. A good resource, here on SOW for figuring out what is the minimum to do to a sax is jaysf. He has written a response or two about using techs and cost control that are worth searching for.

You are already well on your way, since you are asking questions before you make decisions rather then asking how to fix issues caused by having made the decision.


The era of a horn is a real issue. Don't get me wrong. I have a few horns from the early 1920's but they lack keys that modern horns have. I know one good tech that claims horns from the 1950's and 1960's are the best. (I don't think this applies to baritones with low A)

[Butter Knife]

Just got home (some time ago now, since I've been typing this for ever, it seems) from my #1 favourite (notice the Canadian spelling, eh) pastime … hockey. Can my membership on an all-saxophone website be revoked for saying that? If “no”, then my comment stands. If “yes”, then what I meant to say was “my second favourite pastime”. Naturally, saxophones come first.

Gary – admittedly I assembled that list based more on the realization that they were all regarded as good horns, and not as much on the basis of what they’d help me achieve. I guess I’m still needing to come to terms with the whole “who or what is producing the sound, and to what measure” issue, as well as coming to understand what is actually meant by descriptions such as bright and dark, etc. because – to be honest – I’m not always sure that I use them correctly. I think I do, but I’m not sure.

For the most part I’d say that I would like to add more of an edge to my sound – (i.e. more Veronica … less Betty). I don’t necessarily need a more compact, focused sound (if I understand that correctly) since I don’t solo much, and also considering the venue (my church). If I understand the terms correctly, then would I be correct in saying that a darker, more spread “American” sound would probably be the way to go? I play background accompaniment, mostly. I play lots of fill, and harmonize with the vocals as well. The only time I’ll be featured is usually for intros/song endings, or for instrumental bridges, etc. Otherwise, I play around the vocals. I also play unmic’d, by the way.

I appreciate your comment on it being easier to find the sound that you have in your head with the right equipment at your disposal. Perhaps the mouthpiece(s) I ultimately select will play as much of a role here as the horn itself.

I recently read on saxpics the suggestions for best sax in different categories (classical/dark, small ensemble/dark, big band, jazz, r&b, etc.). Some of the models I’ve mentioned are in that list, but I suppose they do mostly tend to be some of the darker horns named.

In the end, I’m pretty unenlightened in the area of selecting equipment, having never engaged in it before (my parents bought my sax for me many years ago, and that’s the only one I’ve ever had). I am, however, encouraged by the help I’m receiving, and by the questions thrown back to me to help me better navigate this journey I’m on.

FremontSax – thank you for the advice re. the importance of a good local tech, and for your kind words re. me asking questions before making any decisions. Trust me when I say that I have watched several good horns go to other people on eBay simply because I don’t yet know what I need or want. Evidently, they do, and hopefully they’ll be very pleased with their new purchases. Me – I’m still searching. I can’t just leap because a horn is a “good” one. It might be right for the person that bought it, but not necessarily for me. I’m super cautious that way - sometimes too much so. I can take half an hour in the store just to buy socks. I mean, c’mon! Half an hour for socks! If it takes me THIS long just to buy SOCKS … then how long do you suppose it will take for a SAX?!

At the rate I’m going, that estate sale isn’t going to include any of these wonderful horns at all. It will, however, feature one pretty crummy King 613 alto with a plastic mouthpiece included. I can see it in my head … “Buy it Now” for $1.

Pity the sucker who jumps on that.

Nite, all.

[MyMartinTenor]

If I may, let me suggest something different. A paragraph of this post really jumped out at me:

Originally Posted by Butter Knife

Admittedly, the mouthpiece I play with is very poor. Student level plastic. While I've stated that I'm far from being a really good player, I'm O.K. But with that mouthpiece, I've always thought that I'm somehow not even getting a true sax sound ... more of a unique sound that I've never really heard from anyone else, to be honest. People in my church tell me they like the way I sound, but I've never liked it as much as the sound I hear from others. I've always thought that it was likely due to the mouthpiece, and then to a lesser extent the horn itself. I never really thought of it as being me. All the most expert contributors whose posts I've read, though, have all expressed what you just reiterated. That it IS in fact ME producing that sound.

It is not true that your sound would not change if you used a different mouthpiece. The "its the player not the mouthpiece/horn" thing gets overstated severely on here. I told you that with MOUTHPIECE SELECTION and practice you could pull those different sounds out of any of those horns. I did not say you could get those sounds with your "cheap student plastic piece", nor did I say you would sound the same no matter which horn you selected.

The "player not the equipment" thing applies to experienced players. The few monsters (Stan Getz and Charlie Parker are commonly cited examples) who can sound exactly the same on any piece or horn are the exception, not the rule. For most of us, equipment matters. Mouthpiece matters more than horn, IMO. I've been playing 20 years, albeit with a few breaks. If I've got my mouthpieces, I can generally sound the same on any horn. But if I have my horn and different mouthpieces, I'll get different sounds. Yes, there will be a common element -- ME -- in all the sounds. But they can be quite different, depending on mouthpiece design.

Also, the "player not the equipment" thing DOES NOT apply if you're not using decent equipment in the first place. I haven't played your student piece, but I suspect it may be holding you back.

So, what I'm suggesting is that you try a few mouthpieces. Its cheaper than experimenting with horns, and easier to ship. See how that affects your sound. If you like the unique sound you're getting on your student piece better than your sound on a nice link or meyer or the like, then ok, maybe that really is the sound you want.

[Chulove]

I have tried a good number of mpcs on my Conns and I found the ones that give me the best and fullest sound are a Selmer Super Session and a Rousseau JDX (great mpc for the price).
Also, I have an early (1925) Silver plated Chu Alto I was going to put up on ebay soon. It is a good player. Pads in good condition. Some normal wear down to the brass on side keys, thumb area and key guards. Only two small dings on the lower bell. It is a nice looking solid horn. I would sell it for $850 + shipping. Let me know if you're interested and I will send pics.

[JL]

Mymartintenor beat me to it. That same paragraph about the very poor plastic mpc jumped out at me also. So I'll second what he said. You really, really need to get a decent mpc, and you don't have to spend a fortune to get one. Of course that's a whole new can o' worms, but read through some of the mpc threads and you'll get an idea. Lots of mpcs are for sale on this forum at reasonable prices also.

Just a couple more points regarding vintage horns. I'll admit right up front I'm heavily biased toward vintage horns, so keep that in mind (many others will tell you straight out to get a 'mocern' horn). I agree with most of the generalizations martinTenor spelled out, except for the maintenance issue. Once a good brand vintage horn is put into good playing condition, it will not require any more maintenance than a new horn, at least in my experience. So I don't think that's a big issue. You'll need a tech over the years for any horn.

For a vintage horn with good intonation (very good, actually) look to a Buescher Aristocrat ('30s through the '50s). I also think the Bueschers have good ergos and I say that comparing my Buescher tenors to my MKVI.

For the best bang for your buck, look for the Bueschers and Martins. Also in altos I think the Conn 6M can be had for a good price. In tenors, the Conn 10M is a great horn but the prices are a bit high on them, compared to Bueschers & Martins. The later True Tone altos (like the one you listed) are very nice horns with a great tone quality, and you can get them for a song.

Don't listen to any nonsense about one horn being a classical or R&B horn or whatever. That's almost entirely down to the style you play, and to some extent the mpc, but not the horn!

I'm sure there are plenty of other brands (both vintage & new) that would do just fine. I'm only giving my preferences.

Finally, a lot of this is subjective, so take all that I said with a 'grain of salt.' I could be way off base, but I don't think so. All the best with your search. You'll definitely find something you like better than what you're using now, especially when you get a better mpc.

[MyMartinTenor]

Originally Posted by JL

I agree with most of the generalizations martinTenor spelled out, except for the maintenance issue. Once a good brand vintage horn is put into good playing condition, it will not require any more maintenance than a new horn, at least in my experience. So I don't think that's a big issue. You'll need a tech over the years for any horn.

Totally fair -- I was thinking about the process of getting it into condition, rather than keeping it there, I suppose.

[Butter Knife]

MyMartinTenor - I appreciate this suggestion. I probably didn't explain my thoughts or plans as clearly as I should have regarding the purchase of the right mouthpiece, relative to the horn it'll be used on. I completely understand and agree with you, though, regarding the importance of the right mouthpiece ... of "my mouthpiece(s)", as you put it.

I guess the reason I've put so much emphasis on the horn and not the mouthpiece (at least at this point in time), is because I'm simply not going to be continuing to use my present horn any longer. I've already decided this, based on its condition (which I realize, now, was not mentioned in my previous posts), as well as on the simple fact that I just plain want to get something new (to me). I mentioned earlier that I don't suffer from GAS, but on the flip side I also feel like finally treating myself to something nice that I've held off on for so long. Not only is my sax a student model, but it no longer plays as well as it should. The quote I got to overhaul it is not worth it, regardless of what improvement I make in mouthpiece selection, when I consider that this amount of money could be put into a different horn, that's already been overhauled, if necessary, and is in excellent playing condition - ready to go.

You wrote, "Also, the "player not the equipment" thing DOES NOT apply if you're not using decent equipment in the first place. I haven't played your student piece, but I suspect it may be holding you back." I couldn't agree with you more.

So ... do you still think I should try a few mouthpieces with my present horn and only then - after I've found what I'm looking for sound-wise from a mouthpiece - continue my search for a new horn? What if that mouthpiece sounds different on the horn I've just bought? Wouldn't it be better for me to buy a horn first (especially if, with practice, I should be able to pull different sorts of sounds out of any good quality horn) and then go out and try a number of different mouthpieces with THAT horn? This is what I've been planning on doing (hence my present search for the "right" horn), but I realize that I'm possibly going about it backwards, if I should be doing it the other way around.

So I'm in a bit of a pickle in some ways. I need to try out different pieces as you recommended, and I've always assumed I would do that once I 've bought a new (to me) horn. That way, I'd get to hear what those pieces can do with the horn that they'd actually be used on, and which is also a good piece of equipment itself. I'm just afraid that the sound I'd get from different pieces on my present horn will change once I shift to another horn, and possibly not be what I like best any more at that point. That and the fact that, playing as it presently does (in terrible need of a repad, for one thing) - it's entirely possible that I wouldn't get as true a set of sound-results as I could if I were to play-test them on a properly performing instrument.

In your honest opinion, does my approach seem sound to you (no pun intended ... o.k., maybe a little), or would you advise me to begin with mouthpiece selection, regardless?

[Chulove]

OK - One last piece of advice from me :

Go to the Saxquest website and buy the Conn Silver plated Transitional Alto selling for $1750 (SN 245463).

Go to the Woodwind & Brasswind site and buy a Rousseau JDX6 mpc, a Rovner MK III lig and Rico Jazz 3 Soft reeds.

This will make you a happy player.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[JL]

Originally Posted by MyMartinTenor

Totally fair -- I was thinking about the process of getting it into condition, rather than keeping it there, I suppose.

Yes, I figured that's what you meant, but wanted to make it clear. Any used horn, modern or vintage, bought on ebay is likely to need some work, so that should always be figured in to the price. I prefer to buy vintage horns from a reputable dealer who will have the horn in tip-top shape (Gayle at vintagesax, for one example), but of course that costs more right up front.

Butter knife, you are in a bit of pickle regarding the mpc, because you can't really get the true potential of a horn with a cheap mpc, and with your present horn it might be hard to decide on a new mpc. However, I think you can do a pretty good job of judging a mpc in a relative sense (how easily it plays and responds) with almost any horn. I'd be inclined to get the mpc first then the horn, IF I wanted to play test a lot of horns. OTOH if I was going to get a horn based on reputation (especially if I get it without a trial period, such as on ebay), then maybe I'd get the horn first and immediately go on a mpc search after that.

[Butter Knife]

Thank you to all who have replied. I really appreciate this kind of welcome and support, especially considering that I only just joined SOTW yesterday.

JL – very well explained. Each of you has offered me one or more valuable things to consider and this last reply from you, JL, makes a lot of sense to me. With my present “axe” (which is no axe, I can tell ‘ya … it’s not even a “hatchet” … more like a “butter knife” – hence my user name), it may be difficult to fully appreciate the subtle, or even pronounced, differences between mouthpieces. The relative strengths of each one notwithstanding, I’ll probably be better off selecting a quality horn from a reputable seller first, and then embarking on a search for the right mouthpiece(s) to complete things – especially since I likely will be buying off eBay or some other web-based marketplace, such that I won’t be able to play test a lot of different horns. Undoubtedly, this is what had shaped my OP – the hope that I might select one make/model based on reputation or ascribed attributes, etc.

As far as altos go (presently on eBay), I just watched one end this morning without selling. It may be relisted, as they often are. It’s a 1925 Conn NWII (Chu). It’s been overhauled and repadded by “master vintage sax technician Mark Aronson – a $600 value” (that’s straight out of the ad) – and comes in a brand new Pro Tec MAX case – a $100 value. The starting bid was set at $900, with a Buy it Now price of $1200. It didn’t get any action, but I emailed Mark before the end of the auction and may email him again to see if he’ll relist or else just sell it to me off eBay.

There’s still that 1928 Buescher T.T. as well - “Buy it Now” for $900; also completely adjusted and repadded with black kangaroo pads from Sax Gourmet. These two seem like pretty good deals for some quality vintage horns that are reportedly in tip-top shape up front, as you had put it, JL.

Finally, there’s that minty 1932 Conn tranny. The bidding starts at $1700 for that one, with a “Buy it Now” price of $1870. The tranny auction ends tonight at about 3 a.m., and the Buescher at about 7 p.m. tomorrow. I’m not about to push any panic buttons. It’s not uncommon to see them come round again if they don’t sell the first time.

Tenor-wise, there’s that 1920 Buescher T.T. for $650. It’s been completely overhauled and repadded as well. Considering the amount of work done to it, that’s a pretty untouchable price, I’d think. The seller himself describes it as not being a “nice” horn, but a great player. I think he said this because some of the engraving has worn and is not as sharp as you see in some of the other real beauts from that era. From the pics, I can see what he’s saying, but honestly the horn still looks pretty nice on the whole (if you’re not planning on always staring at the engraving, and nothing else) and with that amount of mechanical restoration it becomes hard to ignore.

There’s also a 3 month old Barone Mac 8 out there for $1300. I’ve heard good things about them, as far as modern horns go. It’s apparently a copy of the Ref 54, or so I hear.

[MyMartinTenor]

Why not both mpc + horn. Get a basic mouthpiece, and you can just consider this a total sax makeover. Buy smart, and you can always resell the mpc later if you need. Based on what you've said, I'd suggest a Meyer 6M on alto and a Super Tone Master 7 on tenor, although the size could be 5-6 for alto and 6* - 7* on tenor (all average to average-small sizes). Those are pretty standard mouthpieces on the two horns, should be easy to buy for $60 for the alto and $100 for the tenor, and should give you a decent idea of how any of the horns you've discussed sound.

Okay, back to horns. The '28 Buescher TT is overpriced at $900. The Chu and the Tranny are priced high, but possibly reasonable.

If you want an alternative, I've got a 1937 Martin Handcraft "Committee-I" alto I'd be willing to sell (I could use the cash -- new baby here -- and don't need a backup alto, my "The Martin" alto is all the alto I need). All new "Precision" pads from musicmedic.com w/ flat metal resonators, it just needs a final tune up (has a couple of small leaks I've been unable or unwilling to solve, nothing major). Its already a VERY fine player. I've got $400 in it between the horn, pads, and repair. A tune up would be under $100 more, and my tech could get it done within a week. I'd pass it on to you at cost, if you want, tuned up, for $400 + tune up costs + shipping. I suspect you could always get that price for it if you chose to resell, and it may serve you well for life. Beware of the cosmetics -- its an ugly, ugly horn. Probably a relacquer, but most of that has faded. This won't win any beauty contests. But its got a fat, clear sound, and is a lot of fun to play. Pads and corks have been replaced, springs checked and adjusted (a few replaced, as needed), and key action tightened. Here's info on the model, if you're interested:

http://www.themartinstory.net/versio...-committee.php

As far as tenors go, the TT is a very decent price, if the work has been done well. Whether the Barone is a "copy" of anything is hugely debated on here (do some searches), but they are well-respected modern horns. That $1300 should serve you very well for a long time.

[Butter Knife]

Thanks MMT for the advice. I'm going to look up those particular mouthpieces when I get the chance.

The T.T. tenor has really got me thinking. The ad said it's got all new USA Precision pads, blue steel needle springs, felts and corks. All the keys, rods, and neck have been lubricated and adjusted. The seller promises that it will be leak light tested with all pads seating and ready to play before shipping. I'd probably want to have it checked upon arrival, but it sounds like the horn's gotten some proper attention and has been well maintained. This most recent overhaul should have it in decent playing condition, I would think. And for $650 ... hmmmm ...

The Barone is also tempting. Tell me - what do you know of Kessler horns? There's a brand new black nickel tenor available for $1195. The Barone's only $100 more, but I don't know anything about Kesslers. The seller of the Barone even promised me free shipping if I was interested (he's offering it in the lower 48, but I'm Canadian - nevertheless, he said he'd do it for me instead of charging the intl. shipping rate of $80).

Is the '28 Buescher T.T. alto really overpriced at $900, completely overhauled and adjusted? I'll take your word for it as I don't know the market values of vintage horns very well. I do seem to gather that the Chus & Trannys command a bit more if they're in good condition, and so - as you said - they may be priced high, but not altogether unreasonable for their pedigree.

Would you recommend one over the other of these two Conns, if I were to pursue either one of them? Is the tranny worth the extra money or is the Chu just as good a horn, for roughly half the cost? I've read that the keywork is better on some of the trannys, but because the transition from Chu to M series occured in stages, it really depends on the production year. 1932 is smack dab in the middle of the tranny years, so it's hard to say whether this horn would feel more like a Chu or a 6M. I've also gleaned that they're worth more in good condition than either a Chu or a later 6M mostly because of their rarity. There were only approx. 20000 of them ever made. Other than this, I'm not aware of anything else that makes them more valuable. I think it may just be their rarity, coupled with their mystique. It's tough to choose. I'd love 'em both.

There's also a 1966 Buffet Super Dynaction that lapsed tonight, that may get relisted. The seller was asking $1495 on that one. The guy over on saxpics rates this as his second favourite all-round horn after the MK VI. Someone also listed a 3 year old Borgani Pearl Gold alto with a starting bid of $1500. I expect it to go up significantly from there, but they're apparently not very well known horns, so it's difficult to say how much action this auction will attract. I hear they're very well made horns that are very highly respected by those in the know.

[hgiles]

I'd go for the Buffet SDA alto and the Martin Magna tenor.

Taiwanese horns would be just as useful, but don't have the cache of the other two. We like to tell ourselves those things don't matter, but they do in our minds...deep down.

[gary]

Butter Knife, just a couple of succinct comments (haven't woken up yet ):

Thanks MMT for the advice. I'm going to look up those particular mouthpieces when I get the chance.
I really, really advise getting a good mpc/reed combination that you are comfortable before buying another sax. If your present mpc is not good, you are testing other horns out with an inferior component - the first component of your horn in the sound-producing sequence of parts. You've got the mpc, which is very important, the neck, which is very, very important and then you have the sax. Is testing the sound quality of different saxes with an inferior mpc logical?

The seller promises that it will be leak light tested with all pads seating and ready to play before shipping.
They all do.

Tell me - what do you know of Kessler horns?
There is an area of the forum dedicated to Kesslers. Please take a look there. The last I looked, there were around six pages of threads.