Series II vs Reference 54 (alto)

[MonteChristo]

I have recently bought a Selmer Series II in very nice condition with a fresh overhaul. I'm enjoying playing it each night. I have also recently purchased a nice Selmer Reference 54.It was advertised as a closet horn in perfect shape. the playing condition is of course suspect until I have hands on. I hope to to take delivery of it within a few days. The CFO (and common sense) says I can keep one.

As a beginning player both horns are well beyond my ability to appreciate them and I will spend a couple of weeks with them and engage the services of my instructor to decide the outcome, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

So comparing like condition horns what would it be, Series II or Reference 54? Why?

[zorroperro]

I have both and may I add that I have two Series II and one Mark VI also.

All of them are great horns. All Altos of course. My experience, and my liking is for the Series II and I give more playing time for the older Series II I have. The reason is that it has a sound that comes from a yellow brass made horn, which I like best.

Its feeling is of a more resistent horn (not resistance as able to take hits) but as how does it feels for making it sound, and I like that more.

Its altissimo is somehow better at the upper range. It plays louder (O.K., I play louder with them). I have decided to keep its original neck, even many players think that Series II saxophones are very interesting sounding horns with Series III necks. I do not.

It is less expensive, true, and it may be the first buy of a Selmer user, and the Reference has more cache, but by no means I find a Series II with less quality.

My second choice has been the Mark VI and just as good the Reference.

Reference is a magnificent horn. Really, just that Series II Altos are truly very good saxophones. Series III not that good. Series III received improvements like the brass it is made of and the aditional E valve it has that I personally do not appreciate.

What many will add to this thread may be that the Reference is a very good saxophone and the best Selmer does. It is, indeed, a pleasure to play.

My liking has to do with what I believe and feel as a more essentially pure saxophone that allows me to make it sound like me. Completely subjective, as art may be somehow.

Whatever you play, you are at the best.

All the best,

JI

[gary]

You might not like this answer, but in this situation it really doesn't matter what we think. If you're a beginner you can't possibly appreciate the subtle differences between the saxes so, in some regard it's a moot point. How it feels, how it responds, the sound, etc, if you get a better feeling from one than the other go with it. If one just makes you feel better, get it. That might have an influence on your eagerness to play it every day. But regarding the two saxes themselves, all things being equal, you'll do very nicely with either. They're both wonderful instruments. FWIW, I play a Serie II alto. You're a luck guy to be able to have that choice. You can't lose. Choose the one that rings your bell and have fun.

[zorroperro]

Originally Posted by gary

You might not like this answer, but in this situation it really doesn't matter what we think. If you're a beginner you can't possibly appreciate the subtle differences between the saxes so, in some regard it's a moot point. How it feels, how it responds, the sound, etc, if you get a better feeling from one than the other go with it. If one just makes you feel better, get it. That might have an influence on your eagerness to play it every day. But regarding the two saxes themselves, all things being equal, you'll do very nicely with either. They're both wonderful instruments. FWIW, I play a Serie II alto. You're a luck guy to be able to have that choice. You can't lose. Choose the one that rings your bell and have fun.

Usually what this fellow says is very true (usually...), and I think this is the case. He is a very talented sax player and a very direct answer participant.

All the best to you too, Gary,

JI

[gary]

Originally Posted by zorroperro

Usually what this fellow says is very true (usually...), and I think this is the case. He is a very talented sax player and a very direct answer participant. All the best to you too, Gary,JI

That's very nice of you JI, thanks. I just want to clear something up though, I know a lot about music because of my experience and training, but I am first a musical director, second a composer/arranger and a distant third as a sax player. A lot of what I know about sax playing has come from this forum, itself, for which I'm very grateful.

[zorroperro]

Originally Posted by gary

That's very nice of you JI, thanks. I just want to clear something up though, I know a lot about music because of my experience and training, but I am first a musical director, second a composer/arranger and a distant third as a sax player. A lot of what I know about sax playing has come from this forum, itself, for which I'm very grateful.

Well, let me rephrase... He is a very talented musical director, a very talented composer/arranger and a very talented saxophone player that I know for sure, because I have been around here for long... Just the truth. And being talented because of preparation and experience just makes it better, because nothing can be done just with a natural gift without discipline. At every subforum he always contributes with a lot of knowledge, verifiable and solid information. Sure advice to take from.

All the best,

JI

[gary]

Wow. I think I'll sleep better tonight.

[bfoster64]

You might find that one of the horns has better intonation than the other. That can be a big factor when choosing between two Selmers, and especially altos, where intonation is inherently more challenging than on the bigger horns.

You should also consider the type of music you are going to be playing. The Ref will probably be better if you want to play with amplified instruments or in a more contemporary setting. The SII is probably better if you lean towards classical and lighter jazz sounds.

[gary]

Originally Posted by bfoster64

You might find that one of the horns has better intonation than the other. That can be a big factor when choosing between two Selmers, and especially altos, where intonation is inherently more challenging than on the bigger horns.

You should also consider the type of music you are going to be playing. The Ref will probably be better if you want to play with amplified instruments or in a more contemporary setting. The SII is probably better if you lean towards classical and lighter jazz sounds.

Sorry to disagree so directly, but I don't see it like that. Firstly regarding intonation, the question is comparing the 54s and IIs to one another. You can find discrepancies within a group of Refs or within a group of IIs. In my experience there is no significant difference in intonation between the Refs as contrasted with the IIs.

Regarding the use of a II, that is what I play. Actually, I picked it primarily for classical playing, but it also had to be versatile. I have played the II in big bands and in pop cover bands and I can guarantee anyone that it absolutely wails in any of those contexts. This is a great and versatile sax.

[zorroperro]

Originally Posted by bfoster64

You might find that one of the horns has better intonation than the other. That can be a big factor when choosing between two Selmers, and especially altos, where intonation is inherently more challenging than on the bigger horns.

You should also consider the type of music you are going to be playing. The Ref will probably be better if you want to play with amplified instruments or in a more contemporary setting. The SII is probably better if you lean towards classical and lighter jazz sounds.

I play with my Series II blues, funk and soul... I have been playing for almost 30 years now... and I chose it over the Reference for that... Yes, it is true that it is being said that some saxophones may be better for some style of music, but for the Series II there are no limits. IMHO, it has more to do with the mouthpiece, the reed and even the ligature for the type of music than if it is a Series II or not... and it is extremely versatile, because in my opinion, it is a saxophone at its best, lets you to play what you want sounding as you want...

All the best,

JI

[MonteChristo]

I got the Reference today. Remember beginning player here... I can play the note top to bottom with very similar results displayed against the tuner on either horn. The octave D is a bit easier to hit in tune on the Reference but other wise they are close. At least as close as I can appreciate now. There are a few notes that sound goofy or are sharp but they are the same on both horns so I guess that leaves me to blame.

Like I said I'll live with them both for a while.

[zorroperro]

Originally Posted by MonteChristo

I got the Reference today. Remember beginning player here... I can play the note top to bottom with very similar results displayed against the tuner on either horn. The octave D is a bit easier to hit in tune on the Reference but other wise they are close. At least as close as I can appreciate now. There are a few notes that sound goofy or are sharp but they are the same on both horns so I guess that leaves me to blame.

Like I said I'll live with them both for a while.

Just don't make them jealous... maybe one of them may refuse to play...

[MonteChristo]

Thnx for the replies gentlemen. And Gary you're right. I'm very lucky to have this opportunity. On the other side of the coin corporate life SUCKS!

ZorroPerro you had a video of your Series II. Altissimo I think. Can you post a link again? I can't seem to find it.

I'm looking for a horn than will be my life long friend so this will be a fun quest even if it's a bit nerve wracking. I don't want to make the wrong choice. I'm looking for a voice that is a bit more on the rock and roll side, but Jazz and Worship music have to be in there as well. That's why I asked for opinions here. I can't play well enough to hear the true voice of the horn. I suppose that's where my instructor can help.

Thnx again.

[bfoster64]

I find the SII to have a more focused sound than the Ref 54, especially in the high register, and that focused sound does not sound as good to me in a mix with amplified instruments as does the broader, bigger sound of the Ref 54. Every Ref 54 I've played has also had less resistance than the SIIs. For these reasons, I consider the SII better suited for classical and jazz. They're both versatile horns and you can do anything with them, especially with the right change of mouthpiece, reed, and such, but the Ref 54 would definitely be my preference if I wanted to rock out.

[gary]

Originally Posted by MonteChristo

I'm looking for a horn than will be my life long friend so this will be a fun quest even if it's a bit nerve wracking. I don't want to make the wrong choice. I'm looking for a voice that is a bit more on the rock and roll side, but Jazz and Worship music have to be in there as well.

Well, this is why you need to play them yourself. Both of these saxes will do what you want them to do. As an example, I have no reason to doubt bfoster's experience in the above post, but for me they just aren't valid. I don't know what a focused vs slightly more spread sound has to do with a mix with amplified instruments. ~I~ don't. He does - you might and then again, you might not.

MC - here's the delimma. Both bfoster and I have used our saxes in relatively the same way. We both made different choices in sases. You cannot get any more useful info by reading it. And listening to Zorro or any of us on our Serie II or Ref 54s aren't going to tell you squat, because we have adjusted to our instruments and we are using different red/mpc combinations that will effect the sound.

Bottom line - get to a good sax shop and try them out. How are you in driving time to Las Vegas (Kessler & Son)) or to Lancaster (Scimonetti Music)?

[zorroperro]

Originally Posted by MonteChristo

Thnx for the replies gentlemen. And Gary you're right. I'm very lucky to have this opportunity. On the other side of the coin corporate life SUCKS!

ZorroPerro you had a video of your Series II. Altissimo I think. Can you post a link again? I can't seem to find it.

I'm looking for a horn than will be my life long friend so this will be a fun quest even if it's a bit nerve wracking. I don't want to make the wrong choice. I'm looking for a voice that is a bit more on the rock and roll side, but Jazz and Worship music have to be in there as well. That's why I asked for opinions here. I can't play well enough to hear the true voice of the horn. I suppose that's where my instructor can help.

Thnx again.

I will PM you the link, but Gary's advice is the best, no use in hearing anybody at that purpose at this time but yourself if you have this quality saxophones. More impact have mouthpieces and reeds, a lot more.

All the best,

JI

[MonteChristo]

Originally Posted by gary

Well, this is why you need to play them yourself. Both of these saxes will do what you want them to do. As an example, I have no reason to doubt bfoster's experience in the above post, but for me they just aren't valid. I don't know what a focused vs slightly more spread sound has to do with a mix with amplified instruments. ~I~ don't. He does - you might and then again, you might not.

MC - here's the delimma. Both bfoster and I have used our saxes in relatively the same way. We both made different choices in sases. You cannot get any more useful info by reading it. And listening to Zorro or any of us on our Serie II or Ref 54s aren't going to tell you squat, because we have adjusted to our instruments and we are using different red/mpc combinations that will effect the sound.

Bottom line - get to a good sax shop and try them out. How are you in driving time to Las Vegas (Kessler & Son)) or to Lancaster (Scimonetti Music)?

I'm four to eight hour away form these places. If I wasn't clear I have both horns. I'm spending as much time as possible playing each and trying to decide which one "rings my bell". I also have a host of HR mouthpieces. Selmer super session, Otto Link, and Vandoren V16. I also have a selection of reeds. Sadly what I don't have is experience or ability. That's why I asked for opinions here. So essentially what you're saying is I could just pick the shiny one and not be too much worse off.

[bfoster64]

Well, what Gary's saying is exactly right. When you are comparing two very nice instruments as you are doing here, the choice is almost entirely subjective. I don't think anyone can make a convincing case that the SII is inherently superior to the Ref 54 or vice versa. Even our opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of each horn are subjective.

One of your challenges is that you probably haven't been playing long enough to form your own strong opinions. I take it that's why you're asking for the opinions of others. Your teacher's input will be even more valuable than ours, but in the end the decision is yours and yours alone.

You've got a great opportunity here to end up with a horn that you can grow and build your sound with. Whatever you decide, make sure you enjoy the process!

Originally Posted by gary

Well, this is why you need to play them yourself. Both of these saxes will do what you want them to do. As an example, I have no reason to doubt bfoster's experience in the above post, but for me they just aren't valid. I don't know what a focused vs slightly more spread sound has to do with a mix with amplified instruments. ~I~ don't. He does - you might and then again, you might not.

MC - here's the delimma. Both bfoster and I have used our saxes in relatively the same way. We both made different choices in sases. You cannot get any more useful info by reading it. And listening to Zorro or any of us on our Serie II or Ref 54s aren't going to tell you squat, because we have adjusted to our instruments and we are using different red/mpc combinations that will effect the sound.

Bottom line - get to a good sax shop and try them out. How are you in driving time to Las Vegas (Kessler & Son)) or to Lancaster (Scimonetti Music)?

[gary]

Originally Posted by MonteChristo

- I have both horns.
- I also have a host of HR mouthpieces.
- I also have a selection of reeds.

So essentially what you're saying is I could just pick the shiny one and not be too much worse off.

I believe we have already said that they are both superb instruments. And it looks like you've got acquired more equipment than a mere human should be allowed, so either pick the one that appeals to you aesthetically, or defer your decision to a time when you are more qualified to make one.

[MonteChristo]

I really do appreciate your time and input. Unfortunately I can't defer the decision until a later date. There is a hole in my bank account that requires I turn loose of one of these horns sooner rather than later. So, the shiny one it is...

Actually there are some differences. The 54 seems to be less resistant meaning on the SA80II I feel more back pressure when playing. I really don't know what that does for me one way or the other. Also, maybe it's just my weak embouchure but I get the sense that the SA80II is easier to play in tune. I tune to F# (A) then on the 54 it seems if I don't watch it closely G1 and A1 have a tendency to play flat by about 20 cents. Again that could easily be me and I've spent much more time on the Reference than the SA80II so perhaps that's why I notice it on that horn. If I play each note slowly and watch the tuner and listen I don't really see it then.

I'll have someone that actually plays well play them and assist in evaluating that aspect.


Thnx again to all that took the time to respond.