Selmer S64 Series III VS. Yamaha Custom Z

MarkVIstud · 10-15-2009, 03:59 AM

So, im planning to get a tenor soon, there is a five digit mark VI, 1954(first year of mark vi production i believe), from a seller near my place that i want to check out, bu my parents never really paid attention to all my saxophone talk, so they can't seem to understand that a mark vi is most likely better than either the seies III or the Z. But i wanna keep my options open just in case my parents just flat out refuse the mark vi. I plan to go into music as a career, so the mark vi wouldnt go to waste after i graduate HS.

So, looking around, i heard about a Selmer S64 Series III or a series II are amazing horns. heard though the series II is more classical. At the same time i know a Custom Z is a good horn b/c my alto is a Z and its pretty good, i've played better, but good for now. I also heard that selmer tenors sound a lot better than a yamaha does. not sure if thats true though. tell me im wrong if i am.

So i was wonder if i could get a general idea of what people like more, i know it all depends if i like it but still, i wanna hear some opinions.

thx in advance

also, i like the keywork of the yamaha's A LOT!! but not so much the modern selmers. does anyone know if its possible to get a selmer(for the tone/sound) then get the key work done to match a yamaha? or would that throw off the sound or something??

**gary** · 10-15-2009, 04:13 AM

The search function is your best friend.

I have had two Zs and a III, both are excellent saxes. IMO the III had all the attributes of the Z but with a bit more texture and body to the sound.

themacintrasher · 10-15-2009, 05:33 AM

Check out a Yanagisawa 991 or 992 as well. My T-991 was a pleasant surprise.

nathan61 · 10-15-2009, 06:49 AM

The keywork on both the Yamaha and Selmers is excellent and will not hold you back in any way.
Play both the yamaha and selmer and decide which you prefer. As someone who has both Yamaha and a series III (and has also owned a series II), I prefer the series III. It is a personal choice and depends on your own taste in sound.

As a young player be very careful about jumping into buying a super expensive vintage horn without having a trusted mentor also try it. I once owned a 5 digit mark VI that was in excellent condition, but it to me it was not the ideal horn. It doesn't get much better than a good vintage selmer, but it can be hard to find a really good, freeblowing one.

JaredG · 10-15-2009, 06:00 PM

Randy Jones at Tenor Madness has put Yamaha keys on horns before. He recently put Yamaha keys on a Conn Chu, it was pretty sick. Though this would be an expensive solution, and it'd probably be easier to just go for the sound and adapt to the keys.

MarkVIstud · 10-16-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathan61

The keywork on both the Yamaha and Selmers is excellent and will not hold you back in any way.
Play both the yamaha and selmer and decide which you prefer. As someone who has both Yamaha and a series III (and has also owned a series II), I prefer the series III. It is a personal choice and depends on your own taste in sound.

As a young player be very careful about jumping into buying a super expensive vintage horn without having a trusted mentor also try it. I once owned a 5 digit mark VI that was in excellent condition, but it to me it was not the ideal horn. It doesn't get much better than a good vintage selmer, but it can be hard to find a really good, freeblowing one.

This may sound conceited, but im kinda above the high school level curve, my mentor is Jay Mason, and he sometimes says i best some of his college level students, so im not the average high school saxophonist. so...yeah..

stormott77 · 10-16-2009, 05:13 AM

I have played one Z and it was in tune, really even scale but the sound was nothing special. It was kind of like a key board sax sound.

**ianhart** · 10-16-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkVIstud

This may sound conceited, but im kinda above the high school level curve, my mentor is Jay Mason, and he sometimes says i best some of his college level students, so im not the average high school saxophonist. so...yeah..

Then get Jay Mason to go with you when you get a horn. If you're paying the money to have a teacher, they should be willing to go with you and help you make the right choice, based not on looks or name, but sound and playability.

Bring the mouthpieces you are most comfortable on, a tuner, and reeds that are playing very well for you.

Give other horns a shot as well, don't just focus on Yamaha and Selmer.

Bassling · 10-16-2009, 03:56 PM

The Ref 36 and the 82Z UL are the best two tenors I have ever played, although I bought neither. Both came very close to the sound I was after and both played wonderfully, but I couldn't choose as I didn't try them side by side. I also prefer the II to the III, it seems a more focussed sound, but it's probably just me ;-)

Kini · 10-16-2009, 08:53 PM

I spent the summer playing several Z's and wound up buying an EX - based on that experience, I recommend anyone considering a Z to also try an EX. I have not played a Series III, but I thought the Z sounded very similar to my Series II with a III neck. The Z's are nice horns, but the buzz around them surpases reality, IMO.

MarkVIstud · 10-24-2009, 02:18 AM

okay, lets now replace the custom Z with the selmer reference 54.

i just got back from my local band shop, and they didnt have a series III but they had a 54 and a Z. the 54 crushed the Z by a long shot in my opinion.

So now the new question is, Series III Vs. Reference 54

Explain the difference? Similarities? like....sound?

The guy at the shop said the 54s were modeled after the mark vi, but it seems to me that all modern selmers make some sort of model after the mark vi in some way.

**gary** · 10-24-2009, 02:32 AM

I tried several each of all of the modern Selmer tenor models and preferred the III. In retrospect, and considering that I sold my III and went back to playing a JK, if I were doing it all over again, I'd probably give the Ref 54 more time. I'm only saying that in comparing the III and Ref. (If I had to do it all over again, obviously I would chose neither, but rather a JK.) The III has a more "modern" sound, humouring the upper partials a bit more than the Ref. Also I liked the ergos of the III, particularly the LH palm keys more than the Ref. One reason I got the III over the 54 is that I had a Z and a JK and was looking for something more in the middle. If I had to do it all over again and were choosing only a Selmer, I'd spend more time with the Ref horns. We're talking tenors, now.

MarkVIstud · 10-24-2009, 04:02 AM

okay, but could you describe it more? my shop doesnt exactly have one. is the keywork similar for both horns?? sound? i heard that the series III has a brighter sound

**gary** · 10-24-2009, 04:13 AM

keywork is similiar, Ref's LH palm keys are more recessed, the III is brighter.

MarkVIstud · 10-24-2009, 04:22 AM

by recessed you mean....lowered?? and how bright? like....is it in between the Z and the 54?

**gary** · 10-24-2009, 05:10 AM

What is this, "Stump the Dummy"?

I already posted, "IMO the III had all the attributes of the Z but with a bit more texture and body to the sound."
Brightness:
YTS 82Z
Selmer Serie III
Selmer Ref 54

Recessed:
set back; in this case these keys are more outward on a III than on a 54.

Sorry, but that's the best I can do with words. Anything more and you're just going to have to play test them your own self.

MarkVIstud, you know, there has hardly a stone been left unturned on this subject. How much have you read in the Selmer and Yamaha areas of the forum?

MarkVIstud · 10-24-2009, 07:12 PM

not much, i've actually played a Z for myself and the sound was weaker than i expected. my alto is a Z and that plays fine for alto. as i said earlier, the store only had a 54 and no series III, i cant find a shop around me that has one. i dont know much about selmer except most people think they have better sound than yamahas

mauriatboy · 11-01-2009, 10:09 AM

I had a Serie III Tenor in silverplate which compared to the 2 Z's i have now owned played atad on the brighter side to the z's.For me the Z has more body to it but both are great modern horn's.The z feel's a bit more free blowing for me.I still loved the silverplate serie III though,and it looked great.

hgiles · 11-01-2009, 12:07 PM

I tried some Selmers in the store and can never find one set up well enough to even come close my Z. I can't say what their potential is as I don't have any friends that play modern Selmers.

nathan61 · 11-01-2009, 02:50 PM

I had a chance to play a lot of new Selmers furing my five years at University of Norths Texas, and I came to the conclusion (as many others have) that Selmers are very inconsistent. Set-up has a lot to do with it, but some horns just come out better no matter what.

If you only have the chance to try one of each then you might try a really good Series III that is well set up, and a lemon of a 54. I have always tried to try a lot of the same model when I buy a new instrument. Unfortunately that is not always possible.

That is why I suggested getting a really experienced mentor to try the horns. He might know when you have a really good freeblowing example that is a keeper....while even if you are a good player you might not have tried enough horns to do a good comparison.

Some people on this forum say that the new Selmers are essentially the same horns, with different necks, so that is something to keep in mind. If you get a III you might be able to darken up the sound a bit with a 54 neck.

The keywork is great on all the new horns, and personally I think the sound should be the reason for buying a 54 or a III, not some tiny difference in the placement of the palm keys. You get used to the keys.

Another consideration is that Series III tenors can go on e-bay for just over two grand sometimes. That is a steal for a great horn!

Good luck finding a good ax!