Indonesian Scam! Steal Worldwidesax pix and create auction

[sarge]

Thanks to some very aware friends, I was just alerted to an ebay auction, from some crooks in Indonesia, who are selling sax vaporware!
they downloded the pix from my website and created an auction for my Selmer Mark VI, and used my description word for word.
I think it would be a good idea for everyone to go to ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...29373&rd=1 and see how authentic this looks, so you won't get sucked into future rip offs.
I am gong to start ID'ing all my "for sale" pix, but as I have over a hundred, it is going to take some time... besides, once they can't use mine, they will start to use somone elses, so it's time to look carefully into ebay auctions. It doesn't have to be indonesian either, they can type any place in the description... but they usually will ask for a bank wire transfer or moneygrams.
I'm not going to have the auction canceled, so that all can check it out, but we have bid it up to a hefty sum, so that no one can get burned.
be careful out there,
sarge

[MandoPaul]

I am gong to start ID'ing all my "for sale" pix, but as I have over a hundred, it is going to take some time...

Elderly instruments (www.elderly.com) always does nice photo spreads and they "ID" all their photos. They've had several of these scan auctions where the seller cut off their ID. It was really obvious and badly done too, but that didn't stop the seller from using it. There were even a few real bids before folks drove it up to prevent sale.

Basically, the only defense for us is to do what many folks do: ask on SOTW if a deal seems a little weird. Also, folks who notice these should post on this board so we can warn other buyers who may not read SOTW. (I know; how can *any* self-respecting sax person *not* read SOTW )

[sarge]

Well, ebay already caught onto it by themselves. they deleted it and there is nothing to see now, but my point was, this was a very good , very professional looking auction. for many, it would not even arouse suspicion... unless you have visited my website before and recognized the telltale burgandy red background i usually use in my pics.

[MandoPaul]

yup. The only real clue is that it's an Indonesian seller.

A good habit is to send email to the seller with a couple of technical questions, such as physical descriptions. They tend to not answer email at all or be obviously unfamiliar with the instruments.

I've also taken to doing a google search on the serial number and a fairly unique phrase in the description.

[Pete]

Responding to MandoPaul:

How 'bout a more expanded Sax Buying and Selling section, with the following topics:

* eBay problems/warnings (eBay ads to watch out for)
* Humorous eBay ads (we get way too many of these)
* Buying & Selling Experiences (standard compliments/complaints for and about dealers)
* Buying & Selling tips (how to buy and sell more effectively)

Admittedly, we're getting a lot of complaints about "too many topics", but what do y'all think?

[Dave Dolson]

Saxpics: I for one would avoid more topic areas. In these fraud cases, let the buyer beware.

I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush (but I will . . .) . . . buying anything online from Indonesia is like trying to buy a video of SONG OF THE SOUTH, then crying "fraud" when the buyer discovers the video is a poorly copied pirate!! DAVE

[Dave Dolson]

Another thing . . . in defense of eBay (see MandoPaul's posting in another thread, subsequently locked) about eBay not taking action on fraudulent auctions; I worked with eBay for years while I was doing antipiracy work for the studios (MPAA USAPO). They have a huge site and are able to punch in key-words and will take action when they can discover anything against their rules.

They also depend on copyright holders and/or other victims for a heads-up. I found eBay responsible and responsive when queried. One of their attorneys worked for Disney anti-piracy for several years before eBay. He was always helpful when we'd call. Because of their size and the numbers of auctions, it was impossible to self-police every auction. DAVE

[MandoPaul]

The owner of Player's Vintage Instruments has repeatedly had his pictures and descriptions stolen for use in fraudulent auctions. Ebay, even when referred to his web site, which has the same pictures and serial numbers, has refused to yank auctions. Elderly Instruments has also had problems getting auctions yanked.

They are large and sometimes they do the right thing. However, I wouldn't count on it...

You seem to have a fair background in legal and copyright. I'd guess you do better than the average small internet shop selling instruments. Those guys are the ones who have problems. Just as we support the good ones by buying from them, we should also help them by letting folks know about fraudulent auctions using their pictures/descriptions.

[Dave Dolson]

MandoPaul: I'm just an old retired guy who enjoys saxophones, and NOT an employee of eBay nor was I ever associated with them. I suppose they can make mistakes like everyone else - letting an occasional questionable auction proceed beyond the quick action we'd all like to see.

If eBay failed to act upon a reasonable notice, then they messed up. I've certainly been in large and small organizations that made their share of errors (but I have NEVER erred!!!).

Still, even though I believe eBay to be a credible business, we all should venture into eBay territory with a jaundiced eye and loads of caution. That some jerk in Indonesia (or anywhere else, for that matter) takes advantage of someone else shouldn't surprise us. Sorry to hear some folks have been victims. DAVE

[morgan]

I am gong to start ID'ing all my "for sale" pix, but as I have over a hundred, it is going to take some time...

Elderly instruments (www.elderly.com) always does nice photo spreads and they "ID" all their photos.

Well, the "whole instrument" pix were shot with a piece of paper saying 'elderly' sort of near the instrument. Pretty easy to crop off; and they utterly omitted to ID their closeups.
I'd think it would be better to stamp the name right in the photo, as in this example

http://home.austin.rr.com/witthoft/sax/withID.jpg

[max]

Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to remove even that kind of stamp - this is not a particularly good job, but I spent less than ten seconds on it:
http://home.attbi.com/~lauramax/withoutID.jpg

You can get export plugins that add a "watermark" to your images digitally. It works by adding a code into the image itself that isn't visible, and which will generally withstand repeated compression.

It's probably an expensive proposition for individuals, but might be worthwhile for businesses...

[Troy]

I second the watermarks idea. Go to www.dealsonic.com and see how they do this on all their pictures. Should be not-to-hard in any but the most basic of image editors. Done in a light color, it really doesn't impede the viewing of the picture.

[Troy]

Should have read the post better. My idea is just a regular watermark. That one CAN see. Check out the site.

[max]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.digimarc.com/watermarking/default.asp

It's probably overkill, since the regular kind of thing like Morgan did is probably deterrent enough.

It's just that it's just as easy to remove text like that as it is to digitally remove dents and bad solder jobs... then again, if you're dealing with someone who would do that, you might be hosed no matter what...

[sarge]

OK, tell me if it's easy to eliminate this logo, if so, I will have to think of another way to fight crime
sarge

[max]

The thing that makes it hard is having to recreate what's hidden by the logo.

In this case, you would have to recreate the engraving in a reasonably accurate way in order for it to be convincing (which is more than I'm willing to take a crack at right now - so, yes!).

So, with that in mind, place your logo over detailed areas that would be hard to fake up. Obviously, you'll want to show those hidden areas in other pictures (so it's clear you're not trying to cover red rot or some nasty soldering); just make sure that they're from different angles so it wouldn't be possible to cut and paste in order to reproduce the hidden areas.

To add an additional level of toughness, make your logo more than a long low rectangle - if it's a distinctive shape, it'll be easier to tell that something was replaced in that area (a funky looking rectangle might just be a band of odd reflection - a funky looking plus (+) shape or diamond would be a dead giveaway...).

[max]

(by the way, that horn's a beaut! )

[Bill Mecca]

Sarge,

theives could easily just crop that picture to leave out the logo. the lowest tech way to accomplish the same goal is to shoot the pictures of the horns in front of a background that is a constantly repitition of your logo. Imagine a bunch of bumper stickers plastered on the wall. That too could be removed, but it would be a hassle to get a clean finished image, and they would move on to easier targets.

here's an example of what the background would look like.

http://www.geocities.com/billmecca/wwsax.html

[Rob Fish]

OK, tell me if it's easy to eliminate this logo, if so, I will have to think of another way to fight crime
sarge

Hi Sarge,

I sure don't know what the best answer is, but it is probably going to involve you thinking of another way to fight crime.

Since lots of folks are using dial-up modems, I cropped the image, reduced the resolution, and then made the image smaller (to reduce the file size and download time), but if I was going to steal your image, I might do something like this:



Putting my web site address in place of yours took only a few seconds. Even with the lower resolution and smaller image size, I don't think anyone would be able to see a difference in the photos.

Rob

[morgan]

shoot the pictures of the horns in front of a background that is a constant repitition of your logo. Imagine a bunch of bumper stickers plastered on the wall.

Select the image (photoshop will nail the correct boundary over 90% in under 1 second) , cut and paste the image onto a different background... the end.