Are Cannonball Saxes as good as they sound they are?

[mateo2kool]

I am not sure if a Cannonball is right for me. I am in the 9th grade
and play my sax everyday. I have a junky student one and am eager to
buy a new pro sax. I want to play the alto sax for the rest of my
life so this is an important decision. I have looked at Selmers and
Yanagisawas but they are so expensive. From reading about
Cannonballs online it sounds like they are really good. (Some pros
said online that they like it better than their Mark VI's). Tell me,
what have you heard about the CB's and what do you think? Is it a sax that is worth the money? They are so good-looking saxes that I'm afraid I'll be fooled by the look and not the quality results of sound! Any
suggestions will help.

Thanks,
Matt 8)

[Shaun SS]

Matt,
I've got to tell you, I am in love with my Cannonball. I have only had it for about 3 weeks now, but I can't stop thinking about running home after work and picking it up.. It has a great sound and is very solid. If you get a chance look at one of my other posts in this section about buying it. It has more of a review..

[Knight Ender]

As always, you have to try as many different horns as you can before you decide. I know I love my CBall Tenor, I play stuff from big band to wind ensemble, and I have yet to reach my limit! I know I'm not the most experinced player around.....but I dig it. If I had the money, I'd buy that beautiful Big Bell alto from the local shop.........


But don't let others choose it for you. Find what is good for you.

[averageschmoe]

i'm going to take the stance of the opposition here. if, as you say, you intend to play the saxophone for the rest of your life the purchase of a professional horn can not in any way be based in any part on price. as far as my experience is concerned cannonballs DO NOT meet the level of the major manufacturers (selmer, yamaha, yanigisawa, and keilwerth) in aesthetics, ergonomics, intonation, or sound. not to say that the cannonball isn't a decent horn for the money, if i was in the market for a backup horn or a strong doubling horn cannonball would be among my considerations. but again i stress, if this is what you really want to do with the rest of your life then money is no object (whithin reason of course, otherwise we'd all have sterling yani's).

[Riff]

I agree completely with averageschmoe. Cannonballs are great saxes FOR THE MONEY, but they are not yet on the same level as the Big Four. I've played all the new horns by Selmer, Keilwerth, Yamaha & Yanigisawa and IMHO the Cannonballs are very good but not in the same league.

If you want to make a career of the saxophone get a good pro horn, even if it means financing it. You'll never regret it.

If money is a real obstacle look for a good condition Conn 6M or Buescher Aristocrat of late 1930s or early 1940s vintage. These can be had for about the same price as a new Cannonball and will serve you well until you can afford a new horn of top quality.

[SaxHack]

mateo2kool - As a young student, you have no way of knowing what horn will best meet your needs when you are a "finished product". You will likely expereinece several direction changes and influences (teachers) over the next several years, all of which can be determining factors in horn choice.

At your stage of development, it seems to me that the critical issue is having a horn that does not hinder your development - something you can grow with as a player and musician. I think the Cannonball Big Bell Global series would be a great choice, along with the new Yamaha 62 horns which are very nice and in the same price range (new) as the Cannonball.

I think going into debt would NOT be a responsible decision for someone in your situation, nor should it be necessary. At this point in your development a $1500-$2000 instrument will serve you every bit as well as a more expensive horn. And for several reasons, I'd recommend a new or slightly used horn over vintage.

Good luck and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

[averageschmoe]

i would agree with the benefits of a slightly used horn, but i must stress the importance of finding a strong, reliable horn with the necessary reputation to back it. you can often find a used yamaha custom for the price of a new cannonball, the horn WILL serve you better and WILL resale for what you paid if you eventually feel the desire to change. i started with the budget horn, in two years i had outgrown it, and in three years i was able to sell it for less than half of what i had originally paid to go towards my current horn. i agree that the horn should not get in the way of the learning process. and i strongly believe that a "budget" horn will in fact cause a serious student to spend even more money, and go even further in debt, than if he/she was to buy an offering from one of the major manufacturers. if specifics are necessary i can easily go into the exact details of my own experience, but now i'm going to bed.

[SaxHack]

Resale is a valid argument; a Cannonball likely won't hold its value as well as a "big 4" instrument. Although in the last couple of months I have seen used Cannonballs bring 80% of new price on eBay, so they seem to be doing pretty well in value retention.

I don't view the new series of Cannonball horns as "budget" instruments, however. I own one (soprano), I have students who own them, and the university band program I direct owns one (older model). In my experience, they are durable and reliable performers and stand up very well to student use/abuse.

They also play very well - certainly well enough to get a 9th grade student through high school and into college without imposing any restrictions on development. A couple of months ago I had the opportunity to compare a Cannonball side-by-side with a Selmer Series III (altos). For me, the Cannonball played much better. Very smooth response top to bottom, comfortable keywork - a joy to play. No question as to which horn was "worth" more (to me), yet the Cannonball was less than half the price of the Selmer.

There are several "good" horn choices for a serious 9th grade student and I think Cannoball easily makes the list!

[Audrey]

Hi-
I like the poster of this topic, am a student in 9th grade and feel that my student model Vito just won't do it anymore. Most of the prof. sax players and teachers I know use Selmer or Yamaha. I have spoken with a student who uses a CB and he loves it. Is it great? I have always felt a 'comfort zone' around Selmers, they seem to me to be esay to handle, quick to the touch and have a good sound. They are expensive, though, and while expense shouldn't be an issue, for someone that will need a good horn in a few years to audition at colleges, it is an issue. I've enjoyed reading your comments.
Audrey

[Shaun SS]

I can't say enough good things about my Cannonball. I'm not new to playing sax nor would I say I am top pro level. I gig about twice a week and know I still have room to grow in to the CB. The horn is simply amazing. Has huge sound all over great intonation and flat out rips. I own a Selmer SBA Alto that plays excelently as well. I know what Selmers feel like and can do. Believe me when I say my CB's plays awesome.

[paulwl]

I even had a "dark classical" adherent I know tell me some of his students were using CBs with Caravan mpcs and getting a very old-school tone out of them. He thought them a viable option if you want a vintage sound with a modern feel.

I am a little concerned that advancing young students, often eager to please, will take averageschmoe's advice to mean "don't trust your ears or anyone's experience - stick with the status quo." I think we already put a lot of do-alike pressure on young musicians.

The topic line reminds me of that old gag: "[name here]'s music is better than it sounds." :)

[I. Fallon]

I had the opportunity to play a Cannonball tenor a while back. I liked the sound and it was fun to play. My wife and my son were also in the store and they said the sound was no match for my Couesnon Monopole (which is an unfair comparison since Couesnon has not been in business for thirty years).

Botton line is that I would not have had any problem shedding with the Cannonball. I liked it and it fit me just fine. A different mouthpiece might have projected more/better sound from the front of the horn. I don't know.

[Jimmy Scimonetti]

As a tech, I've noticed the metals on CB's are MUCH stronger then any other sax out. Combined with all the double arms and extra bracing, I truly feel CB's are amoung the finest.
The saxophone is an evolving instrument that is constantly getting better and more advanced. I feel high schoolers deserve the same opportunity to get their shiny new horn like the old timers did when they were in school. How come everyone wants the band rooms to smell like old horn?

[terrant]

I am a sax beginner and I have been played for almost 3 yrs for CB tenor. I found CB is one of great saxes and the price is reasonable. If your budget for sax is tight, CB will be the best choice.

Checking carefully the sax when you buy it because the finishing in terms of quality control varies. Some are good, some are bad. Sticky G# key is common, regardless CB or others. The second hand market for CB sax is relatively limited compared with Selmer and Yamaha.. If you decide to keep it forever, who care about the second hand market!

All in all, CB is easy for playing and good sound with reasonable price.
Checking carefully the sax before you buy

[sam_2d]

how much do cannonballs tenors
useually cost?

[retread]

From what I've seen of Cannonball pricing, you can get a Yani 901 for not much more money.

[CashSax]

IMHO.. they won't cut the best of the best...but for the dough they're a killer horn and yes a very BIG sound.. 8)

[alsdiego]

Matt,

Here's my 2 cents... I started playing in 9th grade (45 years ago!). First of all, you don't want a horn that holds you back... any of the above choices would, I think, fill that bill... you need to balance price (if that is an issue), resale value, etc., but in the end, any of these horns will do you fine, IF, and ONLY IF:

1. The horn is properly adjusted, with no leaks, even key height, etc. Find a SUPER tech in your area (ask on this forum), and have the tech go over the horn (even if its new) with a fine tooth comb. Personally, I think this is at least as important for your playing progress as the final choice in a horn, although it may be less emotional. You'd be amazed what a good tech can do with a Bundy II!

2. Find a mpc and reed combination that's suitable for your current stage of development (ask your teacher for suggestions). You want something that isn't exhausting you.

3. Remember that in the end, a good player can make a crappy horn sound good, but a bad player can't make a good horn sound good. The real key is not the horn (assuming it's properly set up), but the player.

4. Finally remember that saxophone players (as amply evidenced by this thread) love to obsess over everything saxophone, from horn choice, to mouthpiece, to reed, why there's even heated discussion about ligatures :wink: While this is fine as a hobby, it tends to detract from the real priorities. Get a decent horn that's professionally set up, doesn't leak, and is relatively easy to play. Then, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!

Al

[gary]

OK. Time for a reality check. No offense to anyone and I think I understand the intention, but I have read, now, in a number of places on this forum that money should be no object. Usually a recommendation follows to get the best, if not one of the most expensive horns out there, and for some good reasons.

But for some of you that haven't yet experienced it, for many money does count.. Those of you who know what I am talking about will simply nod. Those of you who don't will probably not get it even if I tried to explain.

I think Matt's doing the right thing. He knows he wants to keep playing sax and at his highest level and that he needs a good horn to do it, within his monetary limits, and is asking us for help. He has even shown enough maturity (in my experience higher than most of his peer group) by stating "I'm afraid I'll be fooled by the look and not the quality results of sound."

Good luck, young man, and let us know what you finally decided.

[Balladeer]

I agree with Cashsax. That said, if you like the feel of the Cannonball and you can find one new or like new under $1550, I say buy it. If you find Cannonballs priced $1550 - 1900 you probably ought to do a closer comparison with other new horns like B&S and Allora (WWBW) before you buy it. Personally, I wouldn't pay $2000 or more for a Cannonball when I could buy a more sophisticated sounding horn for $2100-2300.

BTW, my perspective comes from having purchased a Cannonball Big Bell Tenor last June, from buying a tenor I really like last November, from playing an incredible Mark VI in music school around 1970, and from owning a Mark VI alto since 1966.

[singlereed]

I saw one of these for the first time yesterday - a local pro was picking up his black nickel alto from our tech. I thought it looked and felt rather like a Guardala (i.e B&S), it has a solid quality feel and I was impressed by the double key arms on the low keys. The tech said she had taken it apart and was very impressed with its construction, saying it was built to the quality of Selmer, rather than being a cheap copy. Also, this pro is known for stripping the lacquer or plating off every other horn in six months (acid-sweaty hands!) yet this one looks as good as new.

[SaxyAcoustician]

I was just on Cannonball Music's website and noticed that the New Century Saxophone Quartet now plays on Cannonball saxophones. That's quite an endorsement and a testament to the quality of their saxophones. It's one thing for a jazz soloist to pick up a new horn. It's really something else for a classical saxophone quartet to do the same because intonation and blend is absolutely crucial to their success.

I tried a few Cannonball saxes myself a couple years back when the Big Bell Series came out and the quality was definitely there. I certainly wouldn't mind playing these horns if someone were to give them to me, that's for sure! Taiwan-manufactured saxophones have come a LONG way in recent years. The only concern I have about Cannonball is that they're prices are a tad steep. When the new Yamaha 62II's are priced in the same range as the Cannonball Big Bell horns you have to think twice about the purchase. I myself would take the 62II's, but that's just me. :)

[Morry]

The CBall's are a decent horn, but their closely held distribution has one logical purpose, and that is to keep prices high, IMO.

[Randall]

For the money, you probably cannot beat a Cannonball.
Now, what money?
If you pay the retail price for them you are getting taken to the cleaners. Your best bet is to watch Ebay for one to come up used. 900~1400 is a resonable range for a 98 or a Big Bell alto or tenor, with the Big Bells coming in closer to the top end of the price range.
I have a played a pile of altos, own some of the finest pro altos, and I can tell you that my 98 C-ball gets FAR more playing/gig time than any other alto I own. When other local pros play it they have ALL asked me to sell it to them on the spot.
Of course, I declined....
:twisted:

[colibri]

The Cannonballs are well made horns with good playability. You may eventually find yourself wanting a pro horn from the top makers, but for the amount of money they are worth, give them a try.

[Saxaholic]

Cannonball horns ARE professional quality horns. Whether they fit a certain style or player is up to EACH INDIVIDUAL. Some say they're great for rock b/c they're loud and brash. Others say the certain finishes are more mellow and great for solo work.....etc etc etc.

As always, it is the PLAYER. The set-up might affect his situation as far as style goes, but a Cannonball pro instrument can and IS a main horn for many professionals. Some simply prefer them: maybe its this, or maybe its that, but they prefer them.

Take a look at Wynton Marsalis (sp) band. The alto player there plays a Cannonball alto. He is quoted...."Simply the best sax I've ever played."

If that doesn't hold it's place amongst credentials for Cannonballs, I don't know what does. Professionals use them, students use them, and everyone in between uses them.

The top prices are fair and most can be found for under $2000, which is amazing considering newer altos or tenors can cost $2300-$4000+, depending on company of course, but in general for top quality pro sax that is what you pay.

Cannonball has established themselves as a competitive company and excellent sax makers. If the horns weren't any good, they wouldn't be in the market and wouldn't be talked about.

Kudos to Cannonball for their success.

[noelpaz]

In the beginning after reading all the hype from the net and from the local retailer and the guys that have got it, I thought Cannonball was a great buy for the money. I think if you paid the $2100 that most reatilers ask for a MAG or 2200 for a laquer you should buy a Yanagisawa 901 or the new Yamaha YTS-62II instead which you can get for 1800. Even if you paid a tech $100 because the Yana or Yamaha is not well adjusted - you will still be getting it cheaper as opposed to a Cannonball.

According to a lot of techs, the double arm does not buy you much. I talked to 2 techs who said that they seen 992 doubvle arms bent as much as as any other horn. I also feel that the Yanagisawa design is better. If anything it is the left pinky cluster double bracing that is probably more important.

I also did not find the Cannonbal as free blowing as they said (using the 2 necks provided). The Yanagisawa 901 was more free blowing. I like close tip openings and a harder reed and it was difficult to get a dynamic resonance on the cannonball compared to what I got from my old no name Kohlert stencil. Sure it is loud when I use a 2.5 or 2 reed. My experience is that you get the full bodied sound and full lowend they advertise if you use a rock mouthpiece but soft reeds - but then you don't have much character.

In short my set-up (Old Meyer flex Tone - 4 and 4 V16) sound crappy on this horn and my metal set-up (7 metal Link and 3 Classical Vandoren 0r 3.5 Java) did not sound good either. It was okay once I used a softer reed - but I lost the dynamics. Even though I had to adjust - my sound and setup was easier to get using the Yana and Yamaha.

I think because of all the engraving and hype, people at first would say, that Cannonballs are great. I felt that way. Players I know felt that way but keep coming back to their old horns. I think at the price that Yamaha is going for or Yanagisawa (62II and 901) they are definitely better deal (and sound and way better keywork) than the Big Bell - this is just my experience. I think if you are initially impressed by the Big Bells appeal but woul want more depth and subtlety in the long run go for the 991 Yanagisawa or the Yamaha. If you got the new Yamaha 62II or 601 and then got a Ponzol neck - you will have extra money left for the price of a CannonBall - plus you will have a resale value. Also a lot of Yana and Yamaha dealers have a try policy. I haven't seen a Cannonball dealer do the same. Also for a while now, the Taiwanese have not really shown a craftmanship like the Japanese or Germans. They still have to go past the commodity mode. Yamaha has the luxury of subsidizing their music business with their other profit making operations besides the fact that they have been in the field longer than most taiwanese makers. Yangiswa - we all know their craftmanship tradition - Germans - to be an apprentice in any trade - its almost like going to an intense college. I think anything made by VMI will also be much better than Cannonball and price competitively.

Point is in my experience - the Cannonball is not the best bang for the buck. Better than most, but I would really have to see hard data and experiences and time for it to be compared to better than a Yamaha or Yanagisawa. Plus the assembly in Utah is also contradictory to the fact that in a in interview they say they hire new people because they are easier to train. I would be more confident if they said we hire techs that are certified WoodWind Repaireres or some industry standard. What kind of technical expertise do the "US" employess really have - we don't know. So even though final assembly is in the US, the main crafmanship is really Taiwanese. It is for the most part a Taiwanese made horn and Stamping Salt Lake City USA does not make it a US horn. They are only able to charge way more for these horns than say a Jupiter or JingYin which are proud to say they are made in Taiwan/China.

Taiwanese and Chinese craftmen are good don't get me wrong. Their civilizations are only 4000 + years old. They have buildings still being used after being their for 2500 years. What lowers their quality is the hundreds of middlemen corporations who are now "sax" builders who place a lot of compromise on the Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturers to build cheaper horns. Yangisawa has been repairing and building horns since 1893 - Yamaha since the 50's or 60's. The "unkown" makers of these Cannonballs would not have the hours on the bench that these other Japanese and East German makers have.

I would say - shop and compare - don't buy crap but don't be fooled by hype either.

[Honeyboy]

Having played a new silver-necked tenor last week right after playing a 270xxx Conn 10M, I would not pay more than $600.00 for one of these. To me, they are student level horns. There is no comparison to a good vintage horn such as Mark VI, Mark VII, Martin, Yamaha YTS 61, etc. A new Yamaha YTS 62 is better-better tone and resale. The tone reminded me of an LA SAX or something of that nature; -really nothing special. These are highly overrated and over priced.

[Saxaholic]

"These are highly overrated and over priced."


So are Selmers :wink:

Did you try a Big Bell model? Was it in proper adjustment? Did you try it with different mouthpieces and reeds to see which ones suited the horn better?

They're not all that bad. Make sure they're put into playing shape with decent mpc and reeds that will cooperate a little with the horn. And try more than one out. You might just have a dud, just like Selmers have duds.

Experiment a little before you make an opinion. I've played Selmers that were horrible. But I know there are good Selmers out there too, b/c I experimented.

Different strokes for different folks. Might not be your axe. :wink:

Saxaholic

[Honeyboy]

Well, it was brand new. All the notes sounded with no problem. So, I think it was set up well. It was a Big Bell model with silver neck. Like I said, it sounded kind of generic. Nothing special. It lacked the richness of the Mark VI, Early Mark VII's , Any of the Martins I've played and owned. The sound was kind of bright but didn't even project as well as the old 10M which had some loose feeling key action. I was using a rubber Berg 110/2 and a #2 Rico Royal. I might find one better than this, but for the $2200.00 they were charging, a used The Martin or a new Yamaha 62 sounds alot more reasonable. It also weighed alot more than any horn I'd care to carry around for 3-4 hours a night. But, it's okay if I don't like the one I tried.I'm just expressing my findings in response to the young man who opened this thread. I suggest he get a new Yamaha 62 or a used Martin, Buescher, King Zephyr, Mark VII and still have some money left over. My main horn is a mid-50's The Martin I bought for $600.00. Let's see, I can get almost 4 at the price of one Cannonball. A new Yamaha can be bought anywhare for $1800.00. Mateo,you are wise to not decide based on the pretty engravings and paint job. Go by tone , feel, construction and years of good reputation if you are going to spend that kind of money.

[michaelbaird]

I 've owned a CB soprano and alto and wouldn't recommend either. There are better new horns in the same price range and certainly better used and vintage horns. I would rather buy and old beat up horn with some metal and character and get it to a good repair man. The CB keys bend to easily and just don't take abuse well. I also don't trust their intonation.

[werkinsnake]

How come everyone wants the band rooms to smell like old horn?

Cause it just smells sooooo good!!! :lol: Seriously though, there is just some mistique about an old horn that a new one cannot duplicate.

[cannonballska]

This si my first post and it is something that I can definitely be helpful on. I have been playing the tenor saxophone for 10 years (since I was eight) and I have owned three pro tenors. The first pro tenor that I owned was a Mark VI, the next two (both of which I still have were cannonballs). The Mark VI is a sweet horn, but the lower registers are just unsatisfying on everyone I have tried. They sound adequate, but when I tried my first cannonball it was full all around, more articulate and had a full, but more focused sound throughout the scales. In short I now own 2 cannonball tenors, a cannonball alto, and hopefully a cannonball bari within the next couple of months. These are simply beautiful instruments...I am in LOVE!!!

[noelpaz]

The nice thing about this forum is you can praise even a Bundy 2 as the horn of the century and dis a mint well adjusted leak free SML. as a crappy horn. But....

The Mark VI is a sweet horn, but the lower registers are just unsatisfying on everyone I have tried. They sound adequate, but when I tried my first cannonball it was full all around, more articulate and had a full, but more focused sound throughout the scales :roll:

Mark VI's are supposed to be picky when it comes to leaks aside from the fact that there were some inconsistencies. But I think Mark VI have a good lowend as well and when well-adjusted and regulated is a really afocused horn. Had one in my possesion for almost a year while the owner was in Asia and even thogh overpriced I see why it is still a very sought after horn by people who play and play well and play for a living (honestly I would not mind having one myself - even though I think my Buffet is as good). When I was testing Cannonballs, the dealer which was a repair shop also had a Voss, my Buffet, a balanced Action and a Mark VI and these horns definitely to my ears were more complex in tone throughout and had a variety of lowend timbres compared to the CB. The CB barked loud alright - but that's it - on the lowend - but who knows... this was just my experience.

[cannonballska]

Keep in mind that we all have different ears. I had that horn set up to my specs and it played very well, I certainly don't want it to seem like a substandard horn, but no matter what I had sax techs do, that low register was unsatisfying. As far as no low end on the cannonball :roll: ...I would put my '98 knight up against any horn. This thing has it all for me. If it doesn't do it for you, you wouldn't be the first. I hold to the philosophy that the horn chooses the player. Every player sounds best on a particular horn, for me the horn(s) of best fit are my cannonballs. I did buy one cannonball horn in particular (Mad Meg) for my ska work and the '98 knight for jazz/bop. The mad meg has more bite than any horn I have ever heard! Just clarifying!

[SelmerSaksMan]

I plyed one a little ehile ago. I have to say that when I saw it I was VERY excited, it looked like an very high quality sax. But when I played it, I was just absolutely let down. The Cb's are nowhere NEAR where people make them out to be. There is no way in hell I would trade my III for it, it sounded so hollow and extremely simple, the key work left a little to be desired, not too bad though. The thick wall neck was a joke, there was hardly a difference between to two, I only found the thinwall to sound bad rather than brighter. I was pretty impressed for the fact that some poor kid making a few cents an hour made the parts. But seriously consider something else before you buy hype. I would say that about 50 or 60 percent fo the horn was hype. maybe some people get better results on them, but I have never got such drastically different results from anyother pro horn than that of my III, even the yamaha played better than that thing did. (I guess it would outstrip a yamaha for jazz, but jazz wont get you anywhere these days with out studying classical too.) I am glad that I played one now, but I wold never consider gettign one personally.iuu

[Manny]

I actually had the opposite effect then selmersaksman...
When I tried the big bell alto, i really wasn't excited over what I was going to play, but the one I played really rips. of course its no series III (at half of the price!) but if i didnt have the money for a top end horn, I would definitely take it. great low end, kind of monotone or focused sound, (probably due to the thick neck, but not too bad) and extremely loud, it was a great experience. The only reservation I had about it is that how it would hold up over time might be questionable. i seemed built to a lower quality; plastic fake mother of pearl keys, laser engraving, and a black finish that seemed fragile to cracks and maybe sweat.

[michaelbaird]

That was my issue with them. I liked the looks, the price, the action and scale, but they didn't play in tune and wouldn't take my abuse. I didn't like the tone I got with my dukoff mpcs. I play on dukoffs all the way from soprano to bari and I don't intend to change. I did like the hard rubber CB5 alto mpc. It worked well with the CB alto. Most of the corks came off, several of the pads fell out of my Royal Crown soprano. I bought it new for $1700.00. I was barely able to get 600.00 for it from the store I bought it from. I think that CB saxes can be a good alternative if the company will correct some of the issues with their earlier models. I certainly believed in them at one timd. From what I've read about their customer service, they do want to put out a good quality horn. I'm planning on objectively trying the BigBells soon.

[KJ]

selmersaksman- I'd be interested to know your background since you have such strong opinions. when you get a chance, llet us know your age and experience on the saxophone so that we won't just think that you're just some kid that bashes every brand except for the selmer that he owns. (after all for all we know you might even be a pro and selmer clinician- although not even 1/8 of the selmer clinicians play on series III horns, which might explain why they will end production in 2005...)

I also enjoy your comments regarding how jazz will get you nowhere, seeing as how I played 4 jazz gigs last week and I'm pretty sure that the 3 sax prof's at the local university with doctorates in performance didn't play that many classical gigs last week combined.... :)

[Minatar12]

Yeah, if anything I would say that just playing classical music will get you nowhere. I love classical saxophone, but I love jazz sax more, and its a fact that there are more jazz saxophonists, more well-known jazz saxophonists, and more opportunities for jazz saxophonists then there are classical saxophonists.

[SelmerSaksMan]

Manny, I played the big bell alto too, too loud was another thign that I had a problem with, maybe they just arent from a classical mould.
As far as I know, Selmer USA and Selmer paris are the only 2 companies that use real pearl these days, a few companies make pretty good imitations, but if you look closely, you can tell that they are fake.

KJ, If you are so ignorant to not know my background, there is no point in telling, you will just miss it again. If you do not know my age, that too would be pointless to tell, for your extensive knowledge on me would most definately contain my age. If you beleive that I am only pro selmer, I question as to whether you actually can read. The series III alto has only been out for its fourth year, now, the alto being the most commonly played saxophone for classical. The mark VI, if you did not know has been out since 1955 until 1974, the mark VI most likely being the most commonly horn played by jazz clinicians. The series III alto is the second youngest sax in selmer's line, people just dont go out and get a new horn because theirs is old or not the latest model. I wonder how many Selmer clinicians play on a reference alto... I am curious as to where you obtained your information that the III will be through with in 2005. As of earlier this summer, I emailed selmer and, "There are no plans to end the production of the series III, the reference will only be an additional model offered." It takes years to sucessfully design a sax and make one, that gives Selmer about a year to do a job that normally takes 2 or 3.

I ask you, what did your professor study to get his phd? I ask you, what does your professor make you study in addition to jazz? I ask you, what eugene rousseau studied to become a professor. I ask you what Lynn klock studied to become a professor. I ask you what Sigurd rashcer studied to become a professor. I ask you what the most prestigous music school in the whole country is, I ask you what they teach there. I ask you what a "classical gig" is, this I honestly have never heard of.

Minitar, who are you calling famous jazz saxophonists? kenny g? dave koz? Josh redman? Chris potter? Your statement would have been true 40 years ago, but not today. Today you can become a professor if you play classical music, as far as I know, of, the only school with an jazz only sax program is juliard. what does an extremely good gig pay? a thousand for a quartet? last I checked, your average college professor makes around 60 thousand starting out. perhaps there may be more of an opportunity for a jazz sax player to play than a classical, but I would take 60 grand a year starting, over a thousand on occasion any day.

[KJ]

ssm:

They are not my profs- as I am an adult (departed grad school a decade ago) They have their DMAs from Mighigan- they studied with Sinta. They are all amazing classical players. As far as making 60k starting off at a college gig, you should research that one a bit. As someone that taught saxophone (jazz and classical) at the college level, I can tell you that profs (of any subject) start out much lower than that, most start out making about the same as a first year school teacher. This doesn't get much better (relative to the school teacher)until they attain tenure.

Some classical 'gigs' I have played:
sax quartet concert
Balshazzar's feast (with orchestra)
West Side Story (with orchestra)

etc...

[michaelbaird]

That is why I'm an RN. I had to know I could get a job. As far as playing music goes, there is always someone better than you out there. I don't mean to be so opinionated either. I just don't want people to make some of the mistakes that I've made. I put alot of faith into those horns when I bought them, and was disappointed. That is what happens when a Mark VI that you have played on for 25yrs is your yardstick for measuring the quality of saxophones. I do plan on going to Sam Ash and trying the Big Bells, and going to the other stores and checking them all out. I'm going to take my yardstick with me though.

[Balladeer]

To MicahelBaird: I was compelled to find 'real' work when I hit age 29. If your yardstick is a VI, why are you looking at CBalls? Anyone accustomed to leather is going to be disatisfied with naughahyde. The big bell will play in tune and it is strongly made, but the tone will not be rich like the tone of the VI. Why bother? You've already got a great horn. Unless you need something for marching band :lol: .

[michaelbaird]

Why do you think? I was looking for an alto and soprano; couldn't afford a Mark VI at the time. I had looked at them, and even had one of their sales brochure that I read many times, it became an obsession until I got one. I had recently divorced and my finances were trashed. I bought the soprano new and bought the alto out of the paper. Even now I would either have to take out a loan or work like a dog for months before I could get a VI. It doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it is good quality, gets the job done, and the parts are easy to find cheap. I had a gifted mechanic friend tell me that the best car was a 92 Nissan Sentra. They are indestructible, engineered well, and the parts are cheap.

I highly recommend nursing as a profession for someone looking for a stable job that you can get anywhere. You won't get rich but you can make a decent living; patients need compassionate people and are very greatfull when they are helped. Playing the tenor has been my therapy to deal with stress. The fantasy of having a saxophone unlaquered that will peel flesh is alive and well. I'm done with being politically correct.

[SelmerSaksMan]

Kj, well maybe profs dont get paid as much as the ones up here do. I once talked to a math professor that was in one fo my classes for career counciling or whatever they called it. He got his phd and made 58 thousand a year. I find it hard to beleive that someone who has spent around 35 thousand on a phd will get paid around 25 thousand a year starting out. (at least thats what school teachers here get starting.) perhaps they taught at a technical school? Sole of the wealthiest people I have ever met have been college professors. Lets say you take a job at manhattan school of music, i beleive their tuition is 22 thousand a year, pretty expensive, pretty good chance that the profs are going to get paid pretty high as well. You may need to spend a LOT of money to become a professor at manhattan school or another school of the like, but you will get paid a lot when you start.

[KJ]

No, it's a large state institution, and first year grade school teachers around here make between 27-35 starting out depending on their education level. Certain prestige schools would hire certain spots at full tenure pay- but that is very rare, even in NYC. Besides, the odds of getting a job teaching classical sax are pretty tough- let's assume that there are 10 FULL time college sax prof openings per year (and that number is very, very generous). How many students throughout the US (and let's not forget Canada, which also has some excellent music schools) do you think graduate each year with a Doctorate in saxophone? At least 30, maybe much more...And don't forget that somebody might have a bachelor's and master's in sax but a doctorate in some other music field- they can also be candidates as long as they can play and teach well....

I'm not saying that classical sax is a waste, because it's very valuable to one's technique (not to mention it's artistic merits), but to brush aside jazz sax as useless would be painting yourself into a corner that only .00001% of saxophonists can get out of.

[werkinsnake]

KJ, I can defininatly buy into the idea of professors getting paid such low wages. In my High Schools graduating class, I know about 10 people who are going to become music teachers. In my High Schools entire music program, I would say that about 25-30 students in grades 9-12 want to become music teachers. With so many people leaping toward this profession, it's no wonder that they are recieving such low wages. Why pay top dollar for someone who is in a dime a dozen group? After a few years, I'm sure that the salary for a particular teacher will go up significantly, that is after the teacher/professor has proved his/her worth. I'm sure that this situation differs from state to state, but in my state, as well as the one that KJ mentions, an abundance of professors is probably the cause of this.

[SelmerSaksMan]

KJ, what I meant is, uneless you study some classical sax too, you arent going anwhere with jazz. I know a lot of kids at my school that couldnt care less whether the genre of classical music dies or not, and they all have dreadfull technique, articulation, sound and not to mention vibrato. All of those for me sucked too untill I discovered classical music, I used to think that jazz was the only type of music that was worth playing, my tone was abysmal, as well as my technique, articluation, I hadn't even started using the vibrato yet. Ever since I acknowledged the legit styles, everything has drastically improved, my tone and articulation in particular.

Lets say jazz is full of opportunites, consider those opportunites. Playing at smart bars every once in a while, releasing Cd's that no store will stock, Being pushed aside by abysmal players such as dave koz or kenny g. I wouldnt fancy playing in that field.