Need Help For Bunched Chin

[ekhy99]

I need help for my bunched chin problem. According to Larry Teal book, you are not supposed to bunched your chin but instead form a flat and firm chin. Also there souldn't be any upward push of the chin to the reed but instead a downwards pull of the jaw

Most of my embouchure formation is right but only with this problem.

( For those who don't know what a bunched chin look like go to "www.embouchures.com" They have really good diagram of a bunched chin)

The problem is that my chin is kind of "fat/thick". So to really produce a flat chin i need to push my jaws real down to get the flat chin formation.
This causses my lower lips to have very little support and i can't contol the reed efficiently. Also my facial muscle become too tired after a while.

Another thing that i notice is that when you insert too much lower lip in the mouthpiece will cause your chin to be bunched as well.

So how do i really form a flat and firm chin ??

Thanks for all your help and i appreciate it !! :lol: :lol:

[Lyle]

I am still a beginner. Probably always will be so evualuate my comment accordingly.

Why not just work on tone. It seems to me the proper chin will follow. If not, and you have the tone you want, what diff. does a bunched chin make. Perhaps all these set rules can be more a hinder than a help. We are not all built the same and must adapt to our own jaw, and chin.

How is your tone in all keys?

Perhaps a veteran will respond to your question, and my comment.

[FrankB2]

Hmmmm, I'm of the school that says do whatever it takes. However,
you don't want to play from the side of your mouth like Kenny G<GRIN>.
I cringe every time I see that guy's picture.

Larry Teal is a classical player, and wrote that book in the early 1960's.
While it's informative, it's not a bible. While some people strongly
suggest that you need to insert 1/2" of mouthpiece for proper tone,
Larry Teal seems to give a bit more leeway there, taking into account
a person's individual physical structure. I would suggest that you
heed Teal's advice on strengthening the muscles that form your
embouchure, rather than trying to emulate Larry's outward appearance.
He also has a bit of extra flesh on his face in those pictures, so focus
on the muscles underneath. I would also say that the angle of your
lips would be a better indicator as well. If your muscles get tired, AND
you're using the proper muscles, that can be good: they'll get
stronger. If you need to move to a softer reed for a while, that's
fine. Larry's book details some facial exercises that you might try, but
I mostly do the pucker to smile thing, and simply a focused pucker.
I'm coming from a clarinet background, so take this for what it's
worth<G>.

Frank

[MS]

Paul Coats articles (linked on forum main page) can be very helpful. Give them a look if you haven't already.

Amount of mouthpiece in the mouth is determined partly by style of facing (long to short) tip opening, and the angle the mouthpiece is inserted into the mouth.

A bunched chin can dampen some of the tonal harmonics, depending on how much cushion the lip provides, and whether the lip is flexible or too much lower teeth pressure. The sound quality is a good indicator. All things being even and if there is a choice, go for an embouchure that doesn't distort the way your face naturally looks. A mirror and your ears can be a big help in determining what, if anything needs adjustment.

[ekhy99]

Thanks for all your help man!

Actually I can get an acceptable tone by using the embouchure suggested by Larry Teal only thing that my chin slighty bunced

Larry Teal also mentioned that the lower jaws must be pushed down and the entire support must come from the chin.
But doesn't this cause the chin to be bunched ??

I am kind of confuse ?? :roll: :roll:

Is the flat chin formation shown in
"http://www.embouchures.com/the_collapsing_chin_photo_page.htm"
is correct and applicable in forming the saxophone embouchure ??


Thanks for all of your feedback and reply i am very greateful

[improving2]

the embrochure in the book you are referring to is achieved by maig sure to use no jaw pressureand supporting wih the corners. I was dong the same thing you were doing. Stretching my chin down to get the flat chin.

[Joe]

Ekhy99, bunched chin is a fairly common problem on saxophone. It's worth fixing because, in addition to muffling the reed, it's just a lot more work for your chin muscles and I believe in minimal effort with maximum results.

Now, there's two viable approaches to saxophone playing. One is to use a clarinet embouchure which involves flattening your chin and pulling down your jaw. There are some classical players like Abato and jazz players like Sanborn that use this embouchure on sax. Realize, though, that these guys started on clarinet. This tends to get a thinner, brighter sound which actually works pretty well not only for clarinet but also for tenor (ever notice how clarinet players generally sound way too bright on alto but can get a very nice sound on tenor?).

The more accepted way, especially on alto, is not the "firm" clarinet chin but instead a "relaxed" chin. If you're doing it right, then your mouth muscles, especially at the corners, will be drawn in and tight but your chin will be relaxed. You can double check yourself by taking your right forefinger and placing it in the middle of your chin. Your chin should feel relaxed and you should be able to move the chin muscle and skin side to side with your finger.

Think of it like this. You want to let the reed vibrate. Remember, though, that it's convex (thicker in the middle than the sides). This thick middle, the heart, will give you a nice rich tone. The thin sides, however, will sound reedy and bright. SO, you want to pull your teeth down to let the middle of the reed vibrate. Then you want to squeeze in sideways from the corners of your mouth to control those thin sides. You should feel like you're squeezing in on the sides of the reed.

Pushing too hard with your teeth (biting) puts more pressure on the middle and not enough on the sides. Bunching your chin puts equal pressure all across the reed, muffling not only the sides but the heart of the reed that you want to vibrate.

The good news is, this is one of the easiest problems to fix on sax. Spend some time in front a mirror every practice session until the new embouchure becomes second nature. A lesson or two with a good teacher can help a lot if you can't lick it on your own.

[FrankB2]

I've played clarinet for 30 years, but this sort of thing never came into
the picture until I began playing sax (forums, technique books, etc).
Soooo, after playing for months with the lower lip curled over the
teeth a la Larry Teal, I decided to try a "lip out" embouchure. Definitely
a less clarinet type tone, and less tooth abrasion on my lip. I did the
test that Joe outlined with touching the right hand finger to the chin
while playing. It was bunched with the lip out. In fact, there was nothing I
could do to unbunch with a lip out embouchure. I curled the lip back over the teeth, and voila, a relaxed chin<GRIN>. Like I said in my first post,
whatever it takes to get the sound and comfort you're looking for.

Have Fun, Frank

[Josh]

I've got this problem too and just started trying to fix it yesterday. Is it normal for me to have so little muscular strength that I can't even play? I've been practicing for 15 minutes at a time with only the neck and mouthpiece trying to form the right embouchure and hold it. In this embouchure, how am I suposed to put enough pressure on the reed to make me anywhere near in-tune? Do I just need more muscle?