Awful sound on G+octave (G#, too)

[Vera Hippus]

Hello to all the other late bloomers.

I just found this forum and really like it. Especially the "late bloomers" group! Now I don't feel quite so wierd!

I'm another late bloomer in the 50+ crowd. I took up the alto a few years ago. Had a few lessons, but mostly I just doodle, nothing serious. I may not have the perfect embouchure, but the notes come out on key and with reasonable pleasantness.

Last week I got a Yamaha 62 II. In general, I love the sound and keywork ... BUT when I play play G+octave (and sometimes on G# + octave). it produces this gosh-awful sound: a hoarse, buzzy, gargling that sounds like the sax can't decide whether to be low or high.

I brought it in for repairs, but when I got it back, the awful sound was still there. They told me they leveled some keys (not the G or G#). I assume they tested it, So I guess I'm the problem. (I plan to check back with them this Monday.)


I don't think it's my embouchure, because all the notes but high G work fine. It also does the same thing regardless of what mouthpiece/reed combination I've used.


I thought the culprit might be the octave key on the body, but I've watched it and it doesn't seem to be sticking.

I've also made sure I'm not leaning on any other keys by mistake.

The one thing that seems to work is if I'm already in the upper octave and maintain a constant, smooth volume of air when I change to G. If I have to start blowing on G, I can't escape it.

So... sorry for all the words, but maybe someone will recognize this "memorable" noise, tell me the solution and help me enjoy my tenor this weekend!

Thanks
Vera
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[clem]

Saxophones are not perfect instruments and because of the design, that note is one of the weakest on most horns. The reason has to do with the shift from the lower octave key (the one on the body) to the higher one (on top of the neck) when you play from the G to the A above it.

I would have your tech check that note specifically to see that the octave keys are opening enough. Maybe run a pipecleaner through the octave toneholes to be sure nothing is blocking them. You say you have tried different reeds (different strengths?) but there is no change.

Beyond that, you may have to alter your embouchure slightly (tighter) when you play that G. There are other problem notes on the saxophone and, trust me, you'll find 'em.

[Vera Hippus]

Thanks, clem,

I'll call the repair tech Monday. You got me wondering about trying a different reed strength... stronger or weaker? I've got the Yamaha 4C and a Meyer 5M mpc. I've tried Vandoren Jazz 3 and Hemke 2.5 and Superial 2.5. Maybe I should try a Vandoren 1.5 and a 3.5. I'll let you know.

[o2wail]

Hi Vera - I think I know what you are going through. I too have just purchased a new Yamaha YTS 62II and my high G/#G produces a metallic ringing (god-awful per my wife) sound when played as a starting note or softly. I have tried changing reeds, mouthpieces, running a pipe cleaner thru the vents, two trips to the shop where purchased and am still seeking resolution.
Please keep us up to date on your solution. I have a similar thread going at :
http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=13255

[Jon B. Bop]

Welcome Vera,

I've been struggling with the same problem with my Mark VI. Gone over it with a tech, and extensively with my teacher(who plays those notes on my horn with no problem), so the sad conclusion is that it is me.

The past couple of weeks I've begun doing extensive long tones on the G and G#, really concentrating on the quality of the tone. I think I'm already seeing results, as the 'cracking' is becoming less frequent.

As in the previous post, these notes are where the octave changes from the side vent to the top, and require a tight, firm embouchre to maintain the airflow.

BTW, I'm also a late bloomer. I started 2 years ago at age 48, and describe my experience so far as shifting hourly between ecstasy and despair. :shock:

[Vera Hippus]

Thanks, o2wail and Jon B. Bop. It's nice to know others are going thru this, too.

I'm starting to think it must be me and/or my set up. I tried the Yamaha 4c with a Rico 2.5 and got out most of the notes with only a slight buzz. When the stores open today I'm going to get some 1.5 and 2 strength reeds and see if it gets better.

I still plan to call the tech Monday, but I'm going to start practicing those long tones immediately! I'll keep you posted.

[o2wail]

Vera - A quick sidenote...When I picked up my sax from the shop the first time, I had their sax guy (playing for 20+ years) try the horn out, and he had the same difficulty with the high G notes. Hence its second trip in for repair.... :cry:

[Vera Hippus]

Wish I had some good news....

I talked to the tech who had no problem with the notes. He said maybe I could try changing the position of the neck. I've tried several changes and still get that awful sound.

I got some pipe cleaners and cleared the two octave holes and still get it.

I tried several different reed strengths from 1.5 thru 3.5 and still get it.

The only success I've had is playing without dwelling on it too much. Then I just get a slight buzz at the start of the note. Even so, it sometimes "breaks loose" on me. Still, it's nice to be able to play again without hearing it all the time.

Let's keep posted.

[Dave Dolson]

Vera: Have you had someone esle try your horn with you present? And, have you tried other horns (different brands, too)? DAVE

[Vera Hippus]

Thanks, Dave, that's a great idea. I did try a Yamaha YTS 475 and had no problems. I haven't yet had anyone play the 62II in my presence... I'll check it out.

[clem]

Vera-

I saw your post on the other thread about these problem notes, and yes, D2 is another one of the "special" notes on saxophones. What is actually happening is that the horn is trying to sound the G or G# or D in the lower register. This is not unusual and you will probably overcome it.

Have you ever tried to play a scale in the upper register without using the octave key? If you try this exercise, you'll find that you can do it if you tighten your embouchure and blow a little harder, but the note will still sound harsh. But after doing this, then play with the octave key but keep the same embouchure, and I'll bet all the notes will speak more clearly.

I don't know why but tenors are much more troublesome about this than altos (from my experience anyway), but maybe it comes from the loose embouchure a tenor demands to keep notes from jumping up an octave. I don't know, maybe an accoustical engineer can explain it.

[Vera Hippus]

Thanks, Clem,
You're right about D2.. it seems a little suboptimal, too. Re the octave exercises, I'll take your advice. It seems like I can control it somewhat with a slight embouchure tightening -- sometimes the "scoop" stops it when it starts. I may need to find a teacher to help out with the "embouchure only" octaves.... I tried a few notes and could only do the very lowest ones. Thanks again.

[o2wail]

Hi Vera - I am closing the book on the "ringing" sound my new YTS-62II displayed. Finally today a tech spent two hours going through the two octave vents and came up with a small sliver of metal that had lodged in the lower stack octave vent. After getting it back together and tweaking a couple of other things that weren't to his liking.......she plays like a dream. Happy ending :D :D

[Saxdaddy]

From a techs point of view, since I haven't played the horn, it sounds like both of your octave keys are opening at the same time. The reason the tech said to try different neck positions, is that when you rotate the neck, it can affect the regulation of the octave mechanism. The ideal reference point is to have the necks brace align to the post that activates the neck octave key. There are a few adjustment that could be out in the mechanism, so if you notice that either the pads open alot, not enough, hesitate in opening, never close all the way and right away, or are open at the same time, then you have problems with the mechanism.

[Vera Hippus]

Hi, all
Just thought I'd "close the book" (as o2wail says) on this problem. I played the awful noise for my prior sax teacher and he says it is indeed an embouchure problem and not the sax. Long tones and "hearing the sound in my head" are the prescription. I guess now is a good time to take some lessons again!


I want to thank everyone for their information and support in figuring this out. I've gained a lot from Harri's Sax on the Web in general and this forum in particular. Late Bloomers RocK!

Vera

[KennyNC]

Vera,
I have a YAS-62II and I too have a problem with G. If I loosen my embouchure at all, I get a growling sound. I've only been playing for 6 months after a 18 year break so it very well could be an embouchure/air support thing for me.
I used to be able to get my old Bundy II in high school to make that growling sound at G too by loosening my embouchure. I thought it sounded neat...lol.

Kenny

[TenorTim]

I' had the same problem with high G. However I recently bought a new horn and the problem is much much better (almost completely gone). I have had the same mouthpiece reed setup with both horns. Not sure about yours, but in my case it seems to have been the horn.

[Kimsey]

I have had a similar problem with my new yamaha tenor. My teacher tried it and it was fine. I kept trying blowing harder and softer, tightening and loosening my emboucher to no avail I also tried different strength reeds. None of this worked and it was driving me insane.
I eventually discovered that by adjusting the angle of the mouthpiece in my mouth the problem was miraculously cured