College Professors and their saxaphones

[TheRuzhyo]

Recently my band teacher told me not to buy another vintage(specifically beuscher) sax because quote" There arent any college professors that use them. I was wondering if anyone knew the makes that any college professor uses or somwhere that would tell me. Thanks.

-Shawn Spencer

[Harrell]

What does it matter what 'college professors' use? And by that do you mean college music professors?

I am a college professor as are a number of regular posters here. Frankly, I'm not impressed with college professors as a group. In general, we have nothing on the ball that you can't find in abundance in the general population. You shouldn't necessarily assign any more validity to the opinion of a college professor than anyone else. Besides, college professors are the squirrel-iest group of pedantic bigots I've ever seen.

If you want an opinion you can respect about a saxophone, you should ask people like Bootman, PaulC, SteveG and many other people you can find here who have extensive experience with the horns.

[Mike W]

Harrell, I too am a college professor--not of music. Gee, you share my views of college professors. I wonder if that is just coincidence?

TheRuzhyo--it would be hard to go wrong with a new selmer, yanigasawa, yamaha, or keilworth. I have played most of the new models of these and they are all good horns; some are great horns. That said, I play a King Super 20 vintage tenor and a new yani 901 soprano--but then, I am not playing professionally, so my opinion counts for little. What's more, I like a bright sound and most band directors don't. Odd, because the 1943 Buescher aristrocrat tenor I have has a dark, smooth tone and plays great. With a low baffle mouthpiece (I use a dukoff d which is high baffle) it will blend very well with a band or orchestra.

[Roger Aldridge]

As an ex-college music professor, I completely agree with Harrell's message! I never cease to be amazed at the misleading advice that some band directors give to their students. Where did they get their training? Above all, what real world musical experience do they have? It makes me wonder how well THEY play or write!

But anyway, Harrell's comment about listening to the advice of seasoned musicians on the Forum like Bootman, Paul C, Steve G, etc is right on the mark. I'll also add Tim Price and Gayle Fredenburgh. Gayle (vintagesax.com) has a deep knowledge of saxophones and is highly respected. Guess what her personal favorite is? BUESCHER!

In my experience, finding the right horn is like falling in love. When it happens you'll know it! Thus, if you have a horn that REALLY does it for you hold on to that horn, play it, and love it -- regardless of what teachers or anyone else tells you.

That's my soapbox speech for the day! :lol:

[paulwl]

Harrell: college professors are the squirrel-iest group of pedantic bigots I've ever seen.
Harrell knows what he's talking about. But...If Shawn wants to "play the game" as it's played nowadays, it would be unfair to tell him that he can use a Buescher at any college he chooses. There is a stigma that they're properly used only by a small fringe with their own sound and repertoire.

There's no hard musical reason for it, except tradition. But, as I wrote in the classical area, it's hard enough getting into a good college sax program without bucking tradition.

[Harrell]

I am ashamed that I forgot to mention Tim Price.

[Troy]

Yeah, don't send 'em after a Buescher. We want to keep those prices nice an' low.

Oops. Too late.

[mostly alto guy]

As long as you profs don't start putting your young prodigies onto Buffet, I'm happy. Save those for us old guys who appreciate quality when we see it and don't care what's fashionable.

[saxomophone]

I met a very good Classical Sax player that goes to college in Mississippi who plays on a beautiful old Buescher. He said that his saxophone instructor Recommends that his students play on vintage Bueschers. I wish I could remember the school and the name of the instructor, but it escapes me right now.

As with everything else in the Saxophone world, everyone has their favourites. The important thing is to play on whatever suits your personal tastes the best.

[saxgourmet]

I'm an adjunct instructor (not a regular faculty member) at a couple of Universities in my area, an although I do appear with Unison horns only, I have plenty of vintage horns in my collection. As far as professors using vintage horns, Prof. Paul Cohen immediately comes to mind, as does Prof. Lawrence Gwodz, who is the leading Rascher-ite in the world and a strong advocate of Buesher saxophones. Prof. Tony Dagradi (Loyola University) uses a vintage Selmer VI.

[sessionsax]

saxomophone,

You may be referring the the band director at Pearl River Community College. He uses an old buesher. I forget his name.

[Bootman]

As for the choice of Saxes that you use, I would advise you to use the sax that works best for you. That being said, when you're involved in a College system music program and getting the best marks are paramount, then sometimes you have to play the game too. It can be a game of walking the tightrope. I would listen to Tim's advise in this area, he is much closer to the ground than I am.

[MTN]

Dr. Gwozdz, at the University of Southern Missisippi in Hattiesburg, does indeed play Buescher; he has also studied the French school and as such would not be considered 'fringe' in the classical world.
http://www.arts.usm.edu/Faculty/gwozdz.html
FYI

[MusicMan]

I talked with a several students currently in college and unfortunate as it is, there is a implied requirement for their "major" sax to be a Selmer product.

The kind of comments they get are:

"Bueschers are ok for marching"
"Do you really want to be a performance major and play on anything other than Selmer"
"Classic sax repitoire is best performed on Selmer, preferably a Mark 6"
"Your choice of sax indicates your commitment to your major"

As far as I'm concerned, that's all BS. But your sax professor can make your life HE-double-hockey-sticks if he doesn't approve of your axe.

As much as we can hate it, there is a lot of Selmer snobbery in many college music programs...

[paulwl]

"Bueschers are ok for marching"
"Do you really want to be a performance major and play on anything other than Selmer"
"Classic sax repitoire is best performed on Selmer, preferably a Mark 6"
"Your choice of sax indicates your commitment to your major"

Sad...:(

The common thread in all those comments is that they are all attempts to forestall debate. Educators should be encouraging discussion and questioning of artistic values. But these people are obviously just enforcing the status quo.

What is it that's so distasteful about an instrument used by 3 or 4 professors out of hundreds? Does it really represent such a threat to the established order?

[srcsax]

Fortunatly not all saxophone teachers are dogmatic. I know Mr. Houlik never cared what mouthpiece or sxophone i performed on. As long as it got the right sound he didn't care. He did foster the growth of individualism withen the confines of good music taste. Of course, he also was more interested in me listening to other instruments and vocal music that saxophonist.

Open mind, open ears.

[Paul Cohen]

"As far as professors using vintage horns, Prof. Paul Cohen immediately comes to mind,"

Yes, I do use a mixture of new and older instruments. Sometimes different vintages for the same size. My two professionally used sopraninos are a Conn and Selmer, and for sopranos they are a curved Buescher (2) and a Mark VI. I alternate with an Aristocrat and Mark VI for alto, as well as a Martin and Selmer for tenor, etc.
I encourage my students to find instruments that work well for them, and there is a full range of vintage and modern instruments throughout my studio. One advantage to my instrument collection is that it allows us to try different instrument brands and models before we search for their purchase. My only concerns are that my students develop an artistically and professionally viable tone, learn to play in tune, and be comfortable with the mechanism for technical development
My students play Selmers, Yanigasawas, Martins, Keilworths, Bueschers, Yamahas and others.
The emphasis is more on tonal concept, instrumental control and stylistic awareness more than equipment choices.
Paul Cohen

[Harrell]

StevenG and PaulCohen - Paul, your post is somehow comforting - I believe, Stan Getz, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Eddie Miller and many others would have sounded the same on almost any horn they played. I believe Bird, in his drunkeness and drug-intoxication, likely played on horns badly out of adjustment and even on horns of poor quality. Baling twine, bubble gum and rubber bands probably kept his horn together. Yet he is a legend.

With all the emphasis on equipment, what it really comes down to is the human behind the horn. The horn won' t play itself. And the human behind the horn can do wonders with an 'average' piece of equipment.

[paulwl]

Paul Cohen: My students play Selmers, Yanigasawas, Martins, Keilworths, Bueschers, Yamahas and others.
The emphasis is more on tonal concept, instrumental control and stylistic awareness more than equipment choices.

Given that, Paul, how important do you think the choice of horn is in developing a student's tone and style? Could a player try to use the same horn (differently set up) for different tonal concepts? Or is it possible for the horn itself - assuming it's a pro quality horn - to be simply inappropriate to a certain style?

[Andrew]

Just as long as you can blow, I doubt any COMPETANT teacher would care what you played on. As a teacher once told me, "They could play the thing backwards, upside down, w/4,000 leaks, on a busted student taiwanese horn...If they can blow, I ain't changin' a thing!"

[saxomophone]

Now that I think about it, my classical saxophone teacher at Temple University used a Cigar Cutter. And was damn proud of it.

[MTN]

Andrew, that's a pretty funny comment coming out of Denton.
Could we assume that the quote from that teacher was pre-North Texas?
(what used to be NTSU? the 'S' stood for Selmer)

[paulwl]

Buescher Bigots are just as obnoxious as Selmer Snobs.
Much can be learned from riling up either group... :twisted:

[Razzy]

I like Yamahas, I get the best sound on them. Other guys get really good sound on Selmers or Yanis or Keilwerths. And some people can actually afford vintage horns ;) I am getting my Yamaha 62 for about 1200, that's about my limit and thus far it's the best damned sound I've heard on ANY horn I've tried, great for the money too.

So yea, to each his own. Everybody has different experiences and certain people prefer certain tones. I for one also like my listeners to really like what they hear, and I chose the horn that achieved not only my own satisfaction but those of my listeners.

[pknight]

My son is a music education major, primarily a clarinet player, although he has played alto in some of the univeristy's jazz ensembles.

The sax professor here is a Selmer clinician. All of the sax majors are encouraged (if you know what I mean) to play Selmers. My son takes his sax lessons from his clarinet professor (who, IMHO is a better sax player than the sax prof) and is therefore not subject to the pressure to play Selmer. He gets along just fine with his YAS-61, and in fact was sought out by the jazz prof because of his excellent tone.

(My son also bucks the trend on the clarinet, by playing a Selmer Recital model rather than the usually obligatory Buffet R-13.)

My point is that some music professors are on the payroll of certain instrument makers, and this may have some effect on what they expect their students to play.

FWIW, I am also a college professor, and all claims about the species made above are absolutely true.

[Andrew]

I actually go to UNT now (Isn't NTSU anymore), and lots of people here have Selmer horns, but I don't think it's a "selmer" school anymore. Professor Riggs plays on a Selmer USA horn I believe, lots of Yamaha horns here...it's still predominantly Mark VI/Balanced Action, but it's slowly starting to see different horns. Black Lacquered Customs, Bronze Yanis, Keilwerth SX-90s, Cannonballs, lots more. I personally play on Selmer horns...Soprano, Alto, Tenor...Series III, Mark VI, Mark VII respectively. I guess I'm a selmer kinda guy.

[Cameron Wigmore]

I like Harell's original reply. Lotsa good info here.

My old college sax tacher Pat LaBarbera uses Lucky Thompsons old balanced action selmer.

[paulwl]

Andrew: Any vintage domestic horns in use, or specifically advised against, at UNT?

[alsdiego]

When I was at the Aebersold camp this past summer, I was struck by the overwhelming preponderance of Selmers amongst the college music teachers and the college student music majors. It was so extreme that I actually got got some "smirks" and snide remarks from both staff and students about my '64 King Super 20 alto, as if I were driving some sort of wierd dinosaur. Found the whole thing somewhat amazing, and in a way, somewhat sad. That said, human beings will probably always try to "bond" with peer pressure, and convince themselves that the horn really does make that much difference. I'm from the school that believes that you can take a Bundy II, put plastic domed resonator pads on it, adjust it, slap on a good mpc, and your horn will be VERY close to a Mark VI. How's that for heresy :D By the way, I've owned both (Mark VI and Bundy II).

[Hurling Frootmig]

I think over time you will see a lot more of those folks playing Yamaha 82z's. I got a chance to play the Yamaha's this weekend and they play a lot like the Mark VI but with better intonation.

Even still I am going to hold on to my Buescher 400 TH&C. :)

[theConnman]

Why dont you tell him that marcel mule played on a VI, that sigurd rascher played on a beuscher true-tone

[alsdiego]

Hurling, I've heard so many good things about the 82Z, I've actually tried to find one in San Diego to play test. Alas, the "official" Yamaha dealer in San Diego only orders the Z when a customer wants one; there's no "demo" horn on the lot, so to speak. Can't believe it, but may actually have to go to L.A. just to try the damn thing.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I've been wanting to try one for awhile and one of the major dealers near Chicago was more than willing to ship one in if I bought it. I didn't like that deal anymore than you. This weekend another of the major dealers had a clinic with Frank Catalano (yamaha artist) and they had the tenor in unlaquered. They also had an alto but a high school kid and his mom drove up from Indianapolis and grabbed it before the clinic. I did get to play a silver plated 62 that blew really nice.

I was impressed with the 82z tenor. I would like to be able to play it along with the 875 and a Ref 36. Although it doesn't matter because I'm not giving up my 400.

[gary]

Guys - why not give WWBW a call and get one on "consignment"? I've had an unlaquered one from them going on two weeks, now. I've found that, regardless of what the online store says or doesn't say, a good phone call can do wonders. I've got a black 875 on the way to do a little comparison shopping.

[Randall]

While I tend to agree with Harrell's estimation about university professors, I want to first categorically state that I am in no way like a squirrel as I have no need to hide my nuts. Pedantic; maybe....
That being said....
This university professor plays the following in order of frequency:
Tenor- Buescher 400 TH&C, JK SX90R straight, Selmer Ref 54, (unitl recently, Guardala NYC model)
Alto- Cannonball 98, Selmer Ref 54 or Millenium (depends on the genre), JK SX90 straight.
* and yes, I play them all in a rotation order*
Bari- JK SX90R, Selmer SBA (soon to receive)
Sop- Jk SX90
Bass- Couf Superba (JK)
C-Mel- Martin

You'll notice the conspicuous absence of a MK VI amongst my players.

[saxgirl9]

I've found that a lot of students end up with the same setup as their sax teachers. They study with the teacher because they like the way the teacher plays, so of course they get the same things thinking that having the same setup will make them sound the same as their teacher. I, however, know that this is not true, because no two people sound the same on the same setup.

A lot of teachers are kind of eccentric and always change what they use so that people cannot copy their setups. My friend had this one teacher who would buy saxophones that didn't even exist any more so that no one else could have it. He would buy no name saxes at like garage sales, have them overhauled and play them. It was pretty crazy. I think that do that to show students that they sound pretty much the same no matter what they play.

I've also found that the sax doesn't matter as much as the mouthpiece and reeds. Those I find change your sound a lot more than a sax.