student with dying swan tone

[blueboy]

I have a student who had been playing without lessons for a number of years. She is an experienced pianist and has therefore advanced quite quickly in terms of technical difficulty of tunes / fingerings, etc. But she has an awful tone, it sounds like an animal in distress. Basically like she is really holding back, like there is tension somewhere, possibly her throat. I have tried a number of things with her but the only way to lose it is to get her to play as loud as possible which she has does not want to allow herself to do. I also encourage her to practice long tones and breathing exercises.

Does anyone have any exercises or suggestions that may help? I've never encountered this problem before.

Thanks.

[copi]

It is really difficult to remove bad habits of students who played a long time without teacher. Especially when they are experienced musicians.

Have you ever tried to let her sing out loud the tunes she is going to play?
This is the only idea I have for this moment, but I´ll think it over

best luck
copi

[MattC]

I would try copius amounts of gin. Preferablly Bombay Saphire. See if that loosens her up!

Ps. I'm only half joking....

[MusicMedic]

If the Gin doesn't work....

I have had success with the Mouthpiece exercise. I have my students play on the mouthpiece alone at the beginning of every lesson. It solves so many problem.

We start on A880 and work down and up in half steps. So it's A, Ab, A, G, A, Gb, A, F etc.. Trying for an 8va. This helps them play in tune (with a piano) as well as loosening the throat. I believe that exercises like this are a great way to loosen the throat muscles and let a sound grow as a result. Since there are no muscles (are there?) to pull the throat open, saying "open the throat" might be a little too weird for a student.

Good luck,

[DougR]

Difficult, Really difficult. The player has an almost impossible job learning to judge tone and volume while playing the thing, Pitch is fairly straitforward, but the timbre in the players head is usually nothing like what the audience will hear.

This is totally different from the position of a pianist, where all you can do is hit it harder or softer. It is after all, a percussion instrument.

I have had some success with a sound level meter, which at least allows the pupil to see how loudly she is playing, or how quietly.

Has she ever heard a sax, played by an expert, in a small room. The sound levels are shocking - and more so if you are familiar with the industrial noise level regs......

[baritone]

a rubbish opinion here.....let her really feel stessed.......says her throat doesnt have the strength to be tighten will that helps? coz when I first played sax.....my sound was another piece of junk......my teacher asked me to relax my throat......but I cant really feel if it is tensed or relaxed.......but one day...after I practised for 5 hrs......and go to his place for lesson....he said my sound was brilliant!!!

[Mel]

I remember that a friend of mine used to have horrendous tone. I would tell her, you know, maybe she should consider some changes in embouchure and throat position, etc. But she refused to change her tone. She thought it sounded more "lively." So when we played together in a band, our tone could kill. We just didn't match--our tone was so different, we sounded out of tune even if we were in tune. Eventually, her stubborness made us seasoned assassins. Then, one day, prior to a concert, we recorded our rehearsal, and surprise! After hearing the recording, her tone began to change, bit by bit. So I guess the bottom line is continue to play with your student, do some recording sessions, and encourage your student to find a sound that she likes and imitate it.

[Saxturtle]

I'm with Mel: record her sound and let her be the judge. If she likes what she hears, do yourself a favor and introduce her to the clarinet teacher down the hall!! :lol:. Honestly, if she's experienced she should be able to take constructive criticism and you as a teacher do her no favors by allowing bad habits to continue. Confronting and subduing hurdles is what you get paid for, eh?

[saxmanglen]

Here's a suggestion my instructor gave some 25 years ago.

He had me blow into the palm of my hand the same way I would blow into the sax. He then asked me if it felt "cool" or "warm"? In my case it felt cool.

He then said I needed to blow into the horn as if I were trying to warm my hands on a cold day. By doing this it forces you to blow from the diaphram with better support and an "open throat".

I can honestly say this was the most profound thing I learned from him.

Glen

[usda]

My first thought was to apply copus amounts of illegal drugs...to go with the gin...but that is really a bad joke. Has she really taken time to listen with headphones to really good players? I think she would be surprised...teenagers are in the realm of the perpetually embarressed and most often have a hard time making a real statement, verbally or musically.

My son plays great accustic guitar...and I must lean over to hear him. He is 16.

[EZ]

I've recently helped a fellow (relatively experienced) musician with the "dying swan" tone by getting him to use a stiffer reed. The mouthpiece had a very closed tip and the reed was a one-year old #2 - so it was practically transparent. Sometimes it's technique - sometimes it's the set-up. Usually, it's some of both when it comes to chronic tone problems.

[sax_appeal]

Didn't illegal drugs and gin work for the jazz greats? Nah... I'm only kidding and definately DO NOT endorse the use of illegal drugs.

Just remember that there is a solution for every problem, and enough hard, well directed work will solve this problem. First you have to determine if the solution is due to support, embouchure, set-up incompatibility with sax. Once you know that you can direct your efforts towards removing, sorry correcting the problem.

Is there any progress with this student yet?

[vinito]

You mentioned that she won't allow herself to play louder, but I was not sure if she is happy with her sound or likes it no more than you do. I guess either way recording and playing it back would be illuminating. Be sure to play it back at a loud, annoying volume that will really inspire her to change.

Record the both of you playing duets with she playing the first part. Of course, the first part is usually carrying the melody and should be a bit louder than 2nd part. Play it back and show her that, despite what she hears when playing, her volume at the back of the room is just wimpy. Ask her to imagine her volume at 20 feet away instead of the distance between her jaw bones and her ear drums.

That breathing on the palm of your hand is something that I was taught too, and it helped me a lot. Have her blow warm air on her palm, then cool air, while noting the difference in how the throat and tongue feel. Tell her to try to bow the warmest air possible - try to "burn" her palm. When she translates this to the instrument, she might squeak and squawk for a while. Convince her to ignore it and keep the throat open. She can work on smoothing out the sound later. Baby steps, baby steps.

p.s. I wonder if it would help to print this thread out and have her read it?