Difference between Rampone & Cazzani R1 and R1 Jazz alto

[Eulipion2]

Hello,
I'm now in the market for a new alto, and up to this point was (and still am) looking at a Yamaha 875 EX, but the R&C caught my eye. Also, I'm borrowing an old gold-plated Conn from my prof, and really like the sound for classical, but not so much for jazz.
I need horn that will perform exceptionally well in both classical and jazz, and was wondering how big of a difference there was between the R&C R1 and R1 Jazz. And if any of you have tried an EX as well, comparisons would be nice!
Thanks

[Brice B.]

There are only few differences between the R1 and R1 Jazz. The R1 has a yellow brass body, where the Jazz model has red brass. The red brass should be a bit darker or more lush sounding. The yellow brass will have more of a Yamaha or Selmer effect, I should think. The R1 gold plate finish is also a bit different from the Jazz model in that it is flash plated instead of heavy plated. This means that the Jazz would be a longer lasting finish, and would not be laquered. Both models are silverplated in the same fashion, so there is no difference there.

I personally bought an R1 alto in heavy silverplate because I wanted the yellow brass. It is a very flexible horn. It is a killer jazz horn, but I've also been using it for classical work. For the price, you cannot find a better Yamaha or Selmer. For any price, you cannot find a better Yamaha or Selmer.

I find that this horn plays a lot like the early 1940 model Super Balanced Action alto I owned, except that it has modern key work and the intonation is a lot better.

[Eulipion2]

Could you describe the tone of your R1? I've been using a Yamaha 62 tenor and a Selmer Mark VII alto, and for the time being an old gold-plated Conn alto until I can get a new horn. I think the 62 might be a bit bright, and the VII had kind of a nasal quality to it that I've found in all the Selmers I've tried out. The Conn is very nice, but perhaps too dark, or not bright and buzzy enough for jazz. I need something dark for classical, but I like a little brighter sound for jazz, a la Bird-Ornette. (their tones sound very similar to me...)
Thanks!

[Brice B.]

Well, the Rampone doesn't play all that far off from a Conn 6M. It has that openess to it. Mine isn't that dark, it is just more complex in overtones. It has all the punch I need for jazz. That is why I selected the Yellow brass.

[Brice B.]

BTW Eulipion2, did I read that you are from WV? I just moved back to Kansas from Morgantwon. I graduated from WVU with my masters last year. Who are you studying with?

[Eulipion2]

Brice B.:
I'm studying with David Wright down at West Virginia Wesleyan College. Were you at the Traverser Symposium last year? And how is WVU's Masters program?

[Brice B.]

Yeah, I know David. I even got a small lesson from him when he came up to WVU. I went to see the Rascher 4tet at Weslyan, but that would be about all I might have seen you at. I studied with Curtis Johnson at WVU. He is amazing. The most versatile sax player I've heard! Paul Scea is also at WVU. He has a unique approach to jazz and is not just a straight ahead player. He can give good trainging in non-traditional styles of playing, which is a big plus. As a grad assistant, I got all the teaching experience I could ask for, and you can have just about any playing experience that you want to. We had hip hop groups, John Zorn groups, Ornette Coleman groups, Latin jazz groups as some of the small jazz ensembles. So WVU is fairly unique in the opportunities it affords people.

BTW, the Rampone would fit in well with the David's program there. I noticed everyone plays vintage Bueschers and Conns. Skip all that and go for a horn with modern ergonomics with all the benifits of a vintage sound.

[Joe Jazz]

Brice, when you said you got the "heavy" silver plate did you mean what R&C calls their "old-fashioned" silver plate? From their pics I'd say it looks kind of dull compared to their "new-fashioned" silver plate.....matter of preference of course..

[Brice B.]

Joe,

What I mean by heavy silverplate is that it is not flash plated like the gold finish is in the R1 series. So I'm just communicating that this is a heck of a deal for the price!

I chose the shiny silver, not the vintage.

[Joe Jazz]

Wise move because I just noticed a problem with my gold-plate....there's a small spot on my bell key guard that's flaked off....bummer..... :(

[Morry]

On your soprano that you've only had about 2 months???? Yikes!

[Joe Jazz]

Yikes is right! The plating is as thin as paper...... :(

[Joe Jazz]

Guess that's why when I asked how much a Yamaha Custom Z alto in gold-plate was when they first came out they said around $7,700. They must put it on thick......

[Dr G]

BTW, the Rampone would fit in well with the David's program there. I noticed everyone plays vintage Bueschers and Conns. Skip all that and go for a horn with modern ergonomics with all the benifits of a vintage sound.

Either that, or that other Italian marque... 8)

:borg:

[Morry]

BTW, the Rampone would fit in well with the David's program there. I noticed everyone plays vintage Bueschers and Conns. Skip all that and go for a horn with modern ergonomics with all the benifits of a vintage sound.

Either that, or that other Italian marque... 8)

:borg:

Fiat makes saxes?

[Brice B.]

Hey, you gotta know what you're buying. I in no way mean any offense to you Joe, but that's why I stayed away from the R1 gold plate. With flash plating, you have to laquer the horn, which to me defeats the purpose of using a precious metal. It will eventually have problems, either in 2 months, 2 years, or 2 decades. That is why I chose silver, because it is heavy plated. The silver on both models will resolve this issue, as well as the R1 Jazz gold plating which is heavy plated.

BTW, a R1 Jazz heavy goldplate would cost about $3300 I imagine right now, compared to the $7700 for a Yamaha.

[Joe Jazz]

GEEZ, now you tell me! :oops:

[Dave Dolson]

I've been following this thread . . . what is "flash" plating vs. "heavy" plating? How can one determine the differences?

I once owned a tipped-bell Rampone soprano that was allegedly 24kt-gold plated (that's what WW&BW advertised) and it looked it. A gorgeous instrument. My Rampone sopranino is allegedly the same (according to WW&BW) and is equally nice. I did not have a problem with the finish on either instrument but admittedly played the tipped-bell a lot more before trading it away. DAVE

[Joe Jazz]

I second Dave's questions, please. How was I supposed to know that they use two different processes to gold-plate, and I don't understand why they would. I had checked(because I was concerned)with Dave about the durability of the gold plate on his R&C's, and he had said no problem. It's not like they tell you on their website about two different processes(and that one is more durable than the other) :cry: . If I'd have known about "flash-plating" I probably would have gone with the silver-plate.......

[Dr G]

Fiat makes saxes?

Ducati...

:borg:

[Joe Jazz]

Brice-

I'm just wondering how you knew about them using flash-plating? Now that I can see beneath the plating it looks awfully thin.

[Dave Dolson]

Isn't ALL plating thin? I mean, how much silver or gold can they lather on a piece of metal before it becomes so thick as to deaden the resonance? I'm still unsure of what "flash-plating" means. How would you know if a horn was "flash plated" before you bought it?

I did not know that with any of the plated horns I've purchased (new and used) and frankly, it never crossed my mind nor did it make any difference whether or not I bought the horn and/or liked it.

I have new and vintage gold-plated and silver-plated horns and I guess I could say the plating is thin because it is worn in some spots (on the vintage horns) and the underlying brass is showing. But who defines "thin" and "thick" when it comes to plating musical instruments? We could be talking silly-milli-meters (like maybe .001 or whatever) here. DAVE

[Joe Jazz]

I think perhaps Brice meant by flash-plating that the Italian fellow who sprayed it with gold was reading a Flash comic book while doing so.....and not paying much attention to how good a job he was doing.... :?

[Dr G]

Isn't ALL plating thin? I mean, how much silver or gold can they lather on a piece of metal before it becomes so thick as to deaden the resonance? I'm still unsure of what "flash-plating" means.

Flash plating is the type of application that you're used to seeing in the bell of your vintage silverplated horns. I believe it is also the method used to apply goldplate to engraved areas (highlights).

There is a big difference in both layer thickness and adhesion.

[Joe Jazz]

THANK YOU DR. G! I appreciate you clearing that up for me :) !

[Joe Jazz]

Oh and by the way, if I were talking about a vintage sax with some gold-plating worn away I wouldn't be complaining about "thin" plating. Three months does not a vintage sax make..... :wink:

[Brice B.]

Sorry for the same posting twice. Computer messed up...

I wish I could say more about the differences in the plating, but i don't know a lot about it. The R1 is 24ct gold without a doubt, I would just imagine that it is a thinner layer and this is why they have to laquer it. I could be way off on this, so I appoligize in advance if I'm giving wrong info on that.

[Brice B.]

Oh, and the reason I found this out is because I asked Matthew Aaron. I don't remember why I did, but like Joe said, it's something that would sway your opinion. I guess what we may have learned here at Joe's expense is to stay clear of the R1 gold plated horns.

[Joe Jazz]

Thanks Brice..I was wondering if you and Matthew had talked about it. That might explain why he seems to push the R1 Jazz's more...... :)

[sycc]

R1 has bow engraving on the left side and the R1 jazz does not. Here are some pics to confirm: R1 http://saxforte.com/saxophones/Eb_Alto/Eb_Alto_Rampone/R1_Alto_Silver/2006AA7b.jpg R1 jazz: http://saxforte.com/saxophones/Eb_Alto/Eb_Alto_Rampone/R1_Jazz_Alto_Silver/2006JAG1b.jpg Of course if you get a fancier R1 jazz w/ more eloborate engraving for more $$$ they engrave the bow!!!. I suspect when the R1 jazz was introduced the bow engraving on the left side was dropped to save money!!! I recently ordered a R1jazz baritone to low Bb and had to pay $114 more for the engaving on the bow(it is a option which I happily paid for because I didn't want my baritone naked on the left side of the bow)).

[wyliecoyote]

Vintage horns were typically electro-PLATED in a process in which the bare brass was electrically wired up and then laid in a bath of precious metal "salts"...ditto with R&C's R1 (silver) and R1J (silver & gold)...silver will bond directly to brass...gold will not electroplate to bare brass..so a gold plated horn is first electroplated with silver..then last with gold...
Flash plating is done in a vacumn/gas process...it is much more superficial, thinner, doesn't last near as long. This is typical of say...most of the other modern horns out there...which is why the heavy electroplated gold/silver R&C R1Jazz horns are such a good deal price wise...they're finished the "old fashioned way"...Yani does make solid sterling silver saxes..and so does Selmer...now....and you can order silver plated horns...gold plate is a special order on their horns, I believe...ching ching ching....
Saxforte specifies this difference between the R1 and R1Jazz in their website FYI on R&C horns...http://www.saxforte.com/saxophones/materials_and_finishes/Rampone___Cazzani_Finishes/rampone___cazzani_finishes.html

Astronomical mirrors are flash plated as well...various combinations of alloys yields different reflectance values vs. (typically) durability concerns...all astro mirrors require resurfacing fairly quickly...e.g. the Keck telescope(s) facility has it's own lab for doing just that...and spare duplicate sections so that ongoing annual maintenance of the silver based coatings can be accomplished as needed.

[Captain Beeflat]

Vintage horns were typically electro-PLATED in a process in which the bare brass was electrically wired up and then laid in a bath of precious metal "salts"...ditto with R&C's R1 (silver) and R1J (silver & gold)...silver will bond directly to brass...gold will not electroplate to bare brass..so a gold plated horn is first electroplated with silver..then last with gold...
Flash plating is done in a vacumn/gas process...it is much more superficial, thinner, doesn't last near as long. This is typical of say...most of the other modern horns out there...which is why the heavy electroplated gold/silver R&C R1Jazz horns are such a good deal price wise...they're finished the "old fashioned way"...Yani does make solid sterling silver saxes..and so does Selmer...now....and you can order silver plated horns...gold plate is a special order on their horns, I believe...ching ching ching....
Saxforte specifies this difference between the R1 and R1Jazz in their website FYI on R&C horns...http://www.saxforte.com/saxophones/materials_and_finishes/Rampone___Cazzani_Finishes/rampone___cazzani_finishes.html

Astronomical mirrors are flash plated as well...various combinations of alloys yields different reflectance values vs. (typically) durability concerns...all astro mirrors require resurfacing fairly quickly...e.g. the Keck telescope(s) facility has it's own lab for doing just that...and spare duplicate sections so that ongoing annual maintenance of the silver based coatings can be accomplished as needed.

Yes, all this is true, but let us not forget that R&C will apply any plating required. The R! does not have to be flash plated. I wanted an R1 tenor, but with heavy gold plate...so I asked...& that is what I received. A gorgeous horn.

[milandro]

I don't think they use different gold plating systems . I know for sure that their plating is thicker than most or possibly any other brand. I would get in touch with the company itself to talk about the plating flaking off. I don't know how practical it is to send it back to Italy for replating but you should be able to claim something on your guarantee at the local importer which is saxforte, I am told he is a reasonable person, some members here have a personal connection with him, maybe they can help.