Help with identifying a bari

[Leese]

Hi all,

A little while ago, a beaten up old bari came into my possession for the princely sum of almost nothing - but I can't identify it.

The engraving on the bell (which actually, for a beater, is really pretty!) says 'Music Center' (US spelling - I'm in the UK) in a sort of cursive writing. That's it, apart from the serial number on the back - 51191.

Unsurprisingly, Googling just turns up loads of music centers that sell/hire baris, as does a search on SOTW, so I'm stumped.

I know it's nothing special or even decent - heck, it plays, and it's a project for a rainy day - but I'm really curious to find out what it is.

Can anyone help?

Lisa

[DixieSax]

Pictures will give us a chance.

[Leese]

Pictures will give us a chance.

No problem :)

Here's one I took a while ago - I'm working on getting something closer-up but the flash is hellish reflecting off the bell.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/leese7242/barry4.jpg

Like I said: it's nowt special - please don't laugh :D

[Leese]

Here's a few closer ups. The discolouration on the bell isn't as pronounced as it appears in the pic. You can just about make out the 'Music Center' engraving.

(ETA: If it helps any, that's a lion with his front paws up on a shield or something similar, above the 'music center' line)

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/leese7242/bari1.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/leese7242/bari2.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/leese7242/bari3.jpg

Does that help any?

[cymru97]

The reverse octave mechanism on the neck says Amati to me, possibly one of the other Eastern European manufacturers. Compare it to the Amati horns on Saxpics, some striking similarities, but not exact (it is a stencil of course).

[Leese]

The reverse octave mechanism on the neck says Amati to me, possibly one of the other Eastern European manufacturers. Compare it to the Amati horns on Saxpics, some striking similarities, but not exact (it is a stencil of course).

You're right - it is very similar. Thanks - that's really useful.

[AhCheung]

Rolled tone holes or rimmed? (BTW did old Amatis have RTH?) Anyway trill G# and hi trill D... this is not a cheaply built horn. Looks like a great find! If it plays in tune and that you can bear the weight, keep it!

A pic of the LH pinkie cluster would tell us definitely whether it was Amati made.

[Leese]

Rolled tone holes or rimmed?

Gosh - I have no idea, I'm afraid; I'm not very clued up on the technical stuff, especially when it comes to saxes - I'm a clarinettist of 30-odd-years who's recently made the switch.

Anyway trill G# and hi trill D... this is not a cheaply built horn. Looks like a great find! If it plays in tune and that you can bear the weight, keep it!


It does play in tune and I'm not finding it overly heavy. It needs some work - I suspect leaks and it definitely needs a new cork on the neck and definitely a new m/piece and it's very stuffy in the upper octave. I'm going to take it into the shop at the weekend.


A pic of the LH pinkie cluster would tell us definitely whether it was Amati made.

Like so? (she says, making sure she can tell her left from her right...)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3105/2849459824_dd52b3cdca_o.jpg

Thanks so much for all your help so far!

[Leese]

Rolled tone holes or rimmed?

Does this help?

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/leese7242/100_0769.jpg

[Chris Peryagh]

If it's not an Amati, it could be a Dearman (also from Czechoslovakia) who copied Conn saxes to an extent and were probably taken over by Amati or Keilwerth.

[Leese]

If it's not an Amati, it could be a Dearman (also from Czechoslovakia) who copied Conn saxes to an extent and were probably taken over by Amati or Keilwerth.

Thanks, Chris. That's interesting.

From the pointers already given here, I've been looking at saxpics, and the LH pinkie cluster seems closer to those on the older Keilwerth pics than Amati. Both very similar, so it's hard to tell. I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for though, since I'm not all that clued up on the various manufacturers.

[warp x]

Looks like a good horn, whatever it is.

Edit: what's the Eric Idle book you've got there?

[Leese]

Looks like a good horn, whatever it is.

That's good to know... I've been putting off taking it to the tech for fear they'll laugh at it :D


Edit: what's the Eric Idle book you've got there?

'The Road To Mars'.

Haven't got around to reading it yet...

[warp x]

Should be fun. (Both the horn and the book)

[Chris Peryagh]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3105/2849459824_dd52b3cdca_o.jpg

The low Bb key or touch has been replaced as the current one hasn't got the L-shaped touch with two rollers.

[Leese]

The low Bb key or touch has been replaced as the current one hasn't got the L-shaped touch with two rollers.

Yep, funnily enough I took it up to my local repairer today and that's the first thing he said - he couldn't work out why.

Sadly, it's not good news; it's fairly trashed. Needs enough work as to make it economically unviable - much more than I realised.

But he did say it was definitely Czech, so at least that's part of the mystery solved :)

[cymru97]

Sadly, it's not good news; it's fairly trashed. Needs enough work as to make it economically unviable - much more than I realised.


Really? How much are we talking?

It obviously has its lumps and bumps, but I've played much worse looking horns... It would probably cost far too much to totally overhaul and put in top shape, but just to get it playing well? Don't give up on it yet!

[Leese]

Really? How much are we talking?

£500+
They reckoned they'd need it for about 4 weeks to do all the work on it.

I called around when I got home and general consensus from other repairers was about the same.


It obviously has its lumps and bumps, but I've played much worse looking horns... It would probably cost far too much to totally overhaul and put in top shape, but just to get it playing well? Don't give up on it yet!

Well, that was my thought, but here's what they said needs doing to it (I may forget stuff):

The tone holes (which are rolled, btw), are pretty much all in really bad shape, and looking at it now I can see they're warped. Some of them have been filed down and he reckons that pads will never seal properly on them.

Lots of dents around the keywork and the body isn't 'straight'. They'd need to take the bell off and the j-crook off to get to them. Take all the keys off and straighten out the body.

One of the strut things at the top (sorry, I don't know the technical terms, I just play 'em) has broken off in the past and been soldered back on - that's now loose and needs re-fixing.

One of the keys at the top doesn't have a spring on it even - hadn't noticed that.

Needs a complete repad, more or less - he said we might get away with leaving a few of the lower ones on.

The cost is in the labour, rather than the parts.

It's a reputable place, and I'm sure they'd do a good job but really what I want is just a 'bodge job', for want of a better word, to fix the most pressing problems so that all the notes play - if the dents are cosmetic I don't care about them.

I'm not really sure where else to go to get it looked at - I suspect all the repairers will say the same. If anyone can recommend anyone in London who may be able to do a minimal repair just to get it playable, I'd very much appreciate it.

Just can't afford the price of a new bari and I can't find anyone who operates a rental scheme. Howarths may be able to do me a short-term rental for a few months until I can save up enough to get something else, but the sax section manager isn't in today so I need to call back tomorrow.

The frustrating thing? Just been offered a bari slot in a big band with a rehearsal on Tuesday.

[cymru97]

Ah, I see. That is certainly frustrating... Maybe a place that does repairs on school horns?

My tech (who is top notch) will do minimal repairs to make horns playable. I've had him do that several times for horns I wasn't sure I wanted to invest a full overhaul on until I could play it.

Ultimately it would be great to get all the work done, but there is a happy median in there somewhere! Best of luck!

[Leese]

Ah, I see. That is certainly frustrating... Maybe a place that does repairs on school horns?

My tech (who is top notch) will do minimal repairs to make horns playable. I've had him do that several times for horns I wasn't sure I wanted to invest a full overhaul on until I could play it.

Ultimately it would be great to get all the work done, but there is a happy median in there somewhere! Best of luck!

The place I took it to actually does repair school instruments - they were pretty busy with them. On reflection, I really think they just didn't want the work, that it was too much hassle, y'know?

I did manage to find someone else who's willing to take it on - an old chap who restores instruments for a local band and has restored lots of old saxes, including an old bari of his own. I went to see him last night and we did a really thorough inspection of it and... it's currently sitting on his bench :) He'll strip it down, replace a few pads (after testing with the leaklight, it's *not* all of them as per the original diagnosis), do the springs that need replacing, clean it all up and see if he can do anything about the tone holes that've been damaged, and we'll see.

I'm not giving up on it yet :)