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the turkish viking
02-02-2004, 06:33 PM
It may take some time to read all the stuff as I included some of my musical background in order to help you sort out what I should be doing right now. I hope you are patient enough. (it's about 3.5 Word pages, to cut a bit of it you can directly scroll down to "My practice routine" part) oh well! :roll:

Coming from a non-musician family, without even someone really deeply interested in music around me I undertook learning to play saxophone some 7 years ago when I was 18, that is 3 years later when I was coincidentially introduced to jazz music by one of Billie Holiday’s album. Then I got in love with the sound of saxophone by Jan Garbarek maybe not a traditional jazz but still… That followed Stan Getz and that was when I first decided to play saxophone.

But unfortunatelly those 7 years passed, and I’m actually just beginnig and really awakened, conscious and determined of what I’m doing or what I have to do. If it wasn’t this website and the forum, I would’ve been still skidding at the same place for more years and then maybe could have given up already. Although I had 3 instructors (maybe excepting the last one which I couldn’t really stick to for a long time) so far I feel as if I couldn’t have much benefit from them. Just going on etudes again and again and again. I had the misconception of if I was technically good I could improvise anything, but all those years I never tried to improvise, learn any tunes, I mean there are many things. I finished Paul Harris’ books, the first volume of advanced book of Rubank, some of the Ferling’s etudes. But basically not much of them left behind after stopping totally for 1,5-2 years or I can say I haven’t practiced effectively for 3 years now. But as I’m working my way through all the way from the beginning my previous studies help a lot as I can orientate myself quite easily.

I know that it’s hard to obtain the true knowledge (though some do quicker than it occurred to me) but I really regret all those years that passed by, but nevertheless I guess it’s easier to get the true knowledge that I really need, in here 8)

Anyhow, right now I’m 25 which can be seen as an old age to begin music, but at least I don’t have to worry about my tone quality so much and try to adjust it as for the beginning level (definitely I’ve got a long way to go to have a better sound), and technically I’m not all that horrible, can sight-read pretty well. As I said I’m determined, conscious and very ambitious which I think matters a lot. Right now my goal is to be able to learn how to come up with a listenable and enjoyable improvised solo I don’t mind how long it takes for me to achieve this. Well, actually I recently realized that I should have decided to be a professional jazz player long ago :oops: rather than the engineering stuff that I’m doing now. But maybe that could also come many years later who knows J

So I need all of your helps about my practice routine, and many many other things.
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MY PRACTICE ROUTINE

I’ve got Jupiter 787GL, use 4C Jupiter mouthpiece that came with the saxophone and 3,5 reed. I started about 2 weeks ago and I practice about 5-6 hours a day (I know everyone says that it’s too much but I’m so behind of most of you and I’ve to catch up, right? :P

I usually do 3 sets, 2 of which are consecutive. Then I rest about 5-10 minutes every hour.

For the 1ST set

1) Long tones:

a) I play from the lower pitch to the higher and then down, in chromatic scale, 60 bpm trying to hold for 12 beats each.

b) I do the same thing crescendo and diminuendo

This takes about half an hour. But I’ve got some problem on the lower pitch especially B and Bb as if I want to play them piano, then there comes this wavering and unsteady sound. I don’t know what to do about it.


2) Scales:

a) I go up and down the Major scale, Natural, Harmonic, Melodic Minor Scales, Dorian and Mixolydian Scales in all keys, full range in 120 bpm. I’m not very quick to think about all the accidentials in each key (takes some seconds) but rather fluent in playing once I know them. But every day it’s getting more automatic rather than trying to guess which notes I should play.
This would take around 30-40 minutes

After that I go rest about 5-10 minutes. I read some theoretical stuff each time I give a break. Currently I’ve got Hal Crook’s Ready, Aim, Improvise book and Mark Levine’s Jazz Theory book. Mostly using Hal Crook’s book now. As reading the theory, I’m thinking of things to apply to my instrument as I’m practicing. It seems as if I need some serious ear training.

b) Then I choose 2 keys of one of the certain scales that I’m studying every day and play them in thirds, diatonic thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths and sevenths up and then down. I deal with them until I can reach 180 bpm and play them without any fault 10 times consecutively, this means it may take several days to accomplish for me, and I guess I’ll be working on those 6 scales for about 2 months but I’m not in a hurry :) I practice these exercises about an hour.

Then I go rest a bit (half an hour or so), listen to some jazz, do some reading either theoretical or currently reading the “Jazz People” book by Dan Morgenstern with Ole Brask’s photographs.

For the 2nd SET

1) I’m practicing the etudes of Paul Harris and John Davies’ 80 Graded Studies. Checking the previous day’s etude(s) and hoping that I can play flawlessly in the first playing. Then taking one etude at a time. I move on to the other if I’m able to play 10 times without any fault. On the 33rd etude at the moment. I give 30-45 minutes to these exercises.

2) I also study from Rubank intermediate method 18th page at the moment. 25-30 minutes for this

After mastering each etude, I kind of vary the rhythm, articulation etc. of some measures that I find melodical and see whether there’s any interesting idea if so I write it down and play it for a while, try to do it in all 12 keys

Resting at this point 10-15 minutes

3) I started with Tim Price’s studies recently. The first exercise that’s available in the web-site about Major and Minor Triads, Dominant-Sevenths in cycle of fourths. Try to do the exercises as described. Depending on my mood, I give about 30-45 minutes to this.

Then I go and do something else as I guess I deserved a longer break at this point.


For the 3rd SET

1) I start with Jamey Aebersold Major and Minor in Every Key. I practice on the 2 keys that I’ve chosen before. First with the patterns and then licks, after that I try to play with Jamey Aebersold’s sample playing. Taking phrase by phrase if I can manage otherwise measure by measure until I can play accurately. These take about an hour.

2) Then I pick up Maiden Voyage. I’m still studying on Summertime. What I’m trying to do when learning tunes and improvising is that, first I learn the notes of the tune by heart, then try to memorize the chord changes (though I don’t know much about these theoretical things at the moment), and then I listen to the rhythm section and try to hear how it sounds. I play the melody without looking at the notes. At the first week, I tried to improvise without thinking about scales & chords, basically improvising thinking about the melody and whatever came to my mind. And at the second week as I’ve managed to internalize the piece, I started to work over chords, chord progressions, scales etc. (with my little knowledge of how to deal with them). Sometimes comes up an interesting idea but my main problem is once I start improvising I lose the track of the rhythm section and don’t have any idea where I’m. I’m not good at sorting out which chord is being played so that I can go in the music at any time. I guess I need reccomendations at this point. And it would be very helpful if someone can really explain briefly what to do with those chords/scales, what do I have to take care of etc.

I made sure that I did these practices almost every day but as I’m attending lectures in the university and have got dozens of assignments to do, I missed a few days but generally I can say that I practiced 10-11 of 15 days.

In addition to this practice routine, once a week I practice piano. I bought Czerny’s technical exercises. Go over it 1-1,5 hours and then do some ear-training on my own, trying to hear intervals, some chords, the sound of scales etc. for an hour or so. Not planning to be a pianist though, I think it just helps to my ear development.

Again once a week I play with a trumpetist (again the Summertime piece) who is about the same level as I am. It often enables for both of us to expand some ideas and get inspired from each other.

Then one of the trombonists that I know whom also studies in jazz school told me this last weekend that he’ll help me with the improvisation stuff once a week. So we’re gonna meet next Sunday (getting very excited for that)

I guess I’ll have an instructor in weeks to come who’s a teacher in a jazz school here…


So I guess that’s it, I don’t know whether I missed out something… Otherwise the thread will be here I guess, so I can add some more :wink:

I’d really appreciate any reccomendations about my practice routine, helps, explanations, just anything… I just don’t wanna be left out anymore and wanna keep the steady work.

Also my e-mail is who would like to contact me for anything is hakansax@yahoo.com

Thanks in advance for any help. It’ll be really appreciated

The Last of the Turkish Vikings

frankbiff
02-03-2004, 03:24 AM
Right now my goal is to be able to learn how to come up with a listenable and enjoyable improvised solo I don?t mind how long it takes for me to achieve this.

Then you must practice more improvising! If you realy have 5-6 hours a day to practice then, if I were you, I would spend about 2 hrs improvising to play-a-longs or Band-in-box or preferably with live musicians.

There is one major thing missing from your routine, and if as you say you have 5-6 hours a day to practice I would devote about 2 hrs to transcribing and practicing solos.

That would be 4 hrs a day trying to make music or studying how others make music.

That leves 1 -2 hrs. Use them for technical excersices etc. I would stop reading music as much as possable and do all scales and chord exersises by ear or from memory, if you forget something figure it out in your head or use your ear, don't look it up. Forget about most of the scales, get your majors down and know hoe to alter them to get to blues etc., same for chord. When practicing these move in cycle of 4th's then 5th's.

It's my opinion (and many disagree) that you learn to improvise by doing it, alot; and by studying what has already been done. Not by studying and playing scales over various chords etc. You need to do more than avoid "wrong" notes.

If you are indeed doing what you say you are doing then you shoud be technicaly competent to start improvising, enough with the etudes, improvise.

the turkish viking
02-05-2004, 08:00 AM
Thanks for the reply...

My main problem is, I don't know where to start improvising, I don't know what to do when I improvise and when I happen to improvise it doesn't sound like jazz. Maybe I was thinking after some amount of theory could help :cry: But I guess you are right about transcribing and practicing solos as I'm starting to realize that there's no other way to get a jazz vocabulary in improvisation.

frankbiff
02-06-2004, 03:50 AM
Transcribing can be a long and difficult process when you first start; so give it some time. In the begining keep it simple and if you cannot get it right away take down the rhythm paterns and practice them over your scales and chords while your waitng to get the notes donw better.

Some folks advocate breaking down the solos into licks and playing the good ones (the ones you like) over and over in all keys. Other will tell you this is a waste of time, you should "be yourself". But the counter to that is that you have to sound like someone else first before you can develop your own style. I think you need to get a handle on what others have done before you can invent on your own. And, not everyone is talented enough to invent a unique style, one that is also good. So even if your are not overflowing wiht talent you will still be able to play a decent sounding solo and have some fun.

If you concentrate on mostly theory it can take a long time for the light to come on (someone else said that, but I like it), as you probably have, (or will) found out. It's easy to get boged down with endless excersises, etudes etc.; but eventualy you have to decide that you have enough ability to start playing real music. Build the technique as you go and as you need it to play what you want. And go for tone, it becomes a lot more fun and everything gets alot more musical when you enjoy your own tone.


I have found the swing players to be a good starting point, fun stuff to play and will help both in further jazz study or in R&B and R&R. Some theory is good but IMHO the theory of what notes to play needs to be balanced with how to play them, i.e. study some rhythms and articulations etc. There are some books out there but I find its good to just listen to how its done.

I am 53, started playing when I was 16, played for about 15 yrs and then stoped for about 20, just started up again last year. Everyone I have ever played with, no matter what the insturment, has spent considerable time emulating their favorite players, sometimes note for note on many solos. Some transcribed, others just played the solo or the licks from memory (I was the later). It seems as though the ones that didn't or couldn't do this never became good enough to play in bands, at least working ones that got paid.

You also must be able to improvise in your head, if you can't how do you expect it to come out the horn? Try scat singing in the shower!

the turkish viking
02-07-2004, 02:33 PM
I don't know whether it's a long subject to discuss about but how do you apply licks or phrases that you transcribed or have memorized from some patterns' book. Is it like "here comes this chord progression so I can use this lick over here"? Or is it like you've got a chord and a part of a lick which corresponds to that chord and another part of a lick which correponds to the following chord and you basically put them together if you think that it's gonna sound good? Or is it some other thing? As you see I'm not so knowledgable about these things :?

And go for tone, it becomes a lot more fun and everything gets alot more musical when you enjoy your own tone.

Ohhh to be honest, I love my tone :oops: That's the only thing I acquired maybe in those 7 years but I should improve it even further.

You also must be able to improvise in your head, if you can't how do you expect it to come out the horn? Try scat singing in the shower!

I do that a lot! When walking in the street, cooking, taking a shower, anywhere and they don't sound awful at all but my frustration is that when I pick up my horn nothing comes out. But I guess I need a serious ear-training as to know the sounds of my saxophone better, and definitely a better jazz vocabulary.

The Last of the Turkish Vikings

JL
02-08-2004, 12:46 AM
Play some basic blues, using Mixolydian & blues scales. That will help get some "jazz sound" going, since jazz is rooted in the blues. It is also relatively easy to improvise over the 12-bar blues. I say "relatively," since it is a simple progression, but you can spend years getting an authentic blues sound. Don't skip the blues, since it is one of the most common sounds in jazz.

frankbiff
02-08-2004, 03:50 AM
how do you apply licks or phrases that you transcribed or have memorized from some patterns' book.

Could be a long answer by some. From me: I never took many licks from a book, the ones you get by listening they just sort of get inside you and you start using them, internalized would be the word. You also internalize the rhythm pattern and use it with other notes. I think the rhythms are as important or more so than the notes. This process seems to jump start you, so to speak, into the jazz idiom. If you have talent then you take it from there.

Playing the licks in all keys and knowing your scales and chords in all keys and practicing them without reading music will help train your ear, you will start hearing pieces of these things in music and will know or have a good idea what the player is doing.

alsdiego
04-09-2005, 12:07 AM
My background is very similar to Frank's. And I couldn't agree more with his approach. Once you develop a basic competence on your horn (and it sounds like you already have), you need to maintain and gradually advance that competence, while putting an ever increasing amount of time into ear playing and transcribing. As for getting ideas of what to play, transcribing from your favorite artist is a great source of ideas. And focus, focus, focus. I spent several months working on a solo to Lady Bird. During that period, I listened and copied solo ideas from the Art Blakey version, the Tad Dameron version and the Charlie Parker-on tenor version (Half Nelson)!!! Lots and lots of material out there. Now I'm almost as comfortable with Lady Bird as with the Bb blues, and it even sounds vaguely like jazz!

Not everyone agrees with Frank's approach... some people contend that you should not imitate as much, that you should let your inner creative self come out. If that works for you, great. When I tried that approach, it didn't sound bad, but it wasn't jazz, either, it was like I was trying to invent a new language. Jazz in general and bebop in particular are filled with cliches which are emblematic of the style. For example, you don't HAVE to bracket a target tone by 1/2 steps, or use chromaticism, but if you do it will sound more like bebop. Or use relatively short phrases with accents, and on and on.

One other suggestion... articulation and phrasing are absolutely essential to the jazz style. Get a copy of "Jazz Conception" by Jim Snidero, and copy his articulation and phrasing to get a feel for how it's done. This alone is well worth the effort. Make sure that you are very precise rhythmically; many beginners have a tendency to "noodle around" without realizing that in a sense they are a part of the rhythm section (ie, Cannonball was an absolute master at rhythm).

Al

Keith Ridenhour
04-12-2005, 07:42 PM
My background was lots of classical and big band experience (senior recital on alto and first chair in the jazz band) and tons of scales, arpeggios, licks , what have you. So basically leaving college I could read like a monster, play big band charts and sort of get through a solo. The last 10 years of getting back into playing after a 15 year layoff has been some of what you describe (my god you are organized and motivated, my hat's off to you) but now 90% of my playing is without music in RnB / pop music bands so my college experience is nice but not what I need in this situation.
What I'd really encourage you to do ( and I do it myself so it's not theory but routine) is to take some of your time and force yourself to sing something or listen to something you like alot and then play it. I can rip through lots of blues scale licks, motifs based on II Vs ,etc but that really isn't a creative, fulfilling experience for me. What I want is to hear something that I like that is indicitave of who I am as player and then play it in a musical form and sound decent. Even with all my tech background and experience it's easy for me to just play licks and mail in a solo which isn't what i want so I'm forced to do what I just told you to do. Cut out the pattern I don't like and start from hearing/singing something simple and figuring it out. Just my 2 cents and like whatever I suggest on this forum I do it myself. K

hgiles
09-29-2005, 09:56 PM
Sounds like you've practiced everything except how to play music. I say put on a few of your favorite jazz ballads and play along with the soloists. As you fumble you will find out how to recover. Along the way you are going to pick up some phrasing and articulation that you cannot learn from a book. Play along with records until you're blue in the face.

Then take away the solists and put in a play along, maybe even of some of the same tunes you have recordings of. Try to remember some of the phrases. If you don't remember -- fake it (improvise). You would have fumbled over the chord a hundred times that you should be able to find something that works.

These two things will build up your improvisation chops.

Instead of scales practice licks taken from a solo you like. This is your new 'scale' . Practice this in twelve keys around the cycle. You'd rather be repeating this stuff rather than a scale in your music.

!anarkisti!
10-03-2005, 09:33 AM
Hello!

I think you have done hell of a job if you really have practised that much. :shock:

One thing that really pops out from your routine is that you don't listen to jazz much. Am I right? I was told that if you practise one hour you should listen to music at least one hour. I think that should help you if you want to aquire jazz sound. 8-)

Remember, you don't have to invent wheel again..