Problems losing my place while soloing.

[Holiday]

One of my biggest problems right now is that I get too carried away in my soloing and lose my place in a song. So for example ending my solo on the second A section in a AABA tune. As well sometimes at jam sessions the rythm section is off playing alternate chords or progressive chords that mess me up.

Ideas I have had to correct this problem is intensive ear training, soloing closer to the melody, more intense memorization of chord structures and counting bars.

What would you suggest?

[MattC]

If I may ask, what are you currently thinking about when you take your solo? How are you improvising now? What do you notice happening when you get lost? Are the tools you use for improvisation so second nature that they're in you finger memory, or are you concentrating on their execution? Are you using guide tones? Motives? Through composition? Or are you just blowin' by ear?

Matt

[PaulNYC]

Tell the drummer to make sure he's doing something special at the start of each section, or at the head. At least, you'll get a clue from that. I certainly like it.

[Holiday]

To answer the questions:

If I think of anything it's that "hearing" what I'd like to play next. Of course I listen to the band, I try to hear the changes so the light will go off in my head "OK this is the bridge."

Improvising on blues changes I'm cool with. Songs like "On Green Dolphin Street" (my last big blunder) have thrown me at times.

When I find that I'm lost I'm like waiting to hear a tell tale sign of where I am. I hope the drummer, bassist or piano player will signify a change. That and the general panic that I can't find a way to get out of the solo chorus. Maybe it's the cats I've been playing with who do not always comp cause their too busy showing off. I suppose I want to be rock solid in my place even if the pianist goes off into alternate chord changes.

I do not really practise a solo ahead of time. I might have a few licks in my head but other than that I go with however I feel at the moment. I tend to blow by ear. Guide tones is perhaps something I should work on.

You ever hear that joke where Lester Young leans over to Oscar Peterson and asks "What mother****in key we in?" and it accidentally gets picked up by Oscar's piano mic?

I suppose too I often try and play beyond my current abilities.

[PaulNYC]

To answer the questions:
I suppose too I often try and play beyond my current abilities.

You'll get better real fast then :D It's the only way.

[saxmangeoff]

Holiday,

It sounds to me like you're doing pretty well, and as PaulNYC says, you're probably well on your way to the improvement you seek (by which time you will have raised your standard, so you'll still feel like you aren't as good as you should be -- this is the way it goes).

Other than the advice already given of listening for a drum kick or the turnaround chords, or bridge, or whatever, which covers how to find your place again, there's the question of what in the world to do in the meantime! To answer that, I'll pass along a variation on some advice Bucky Pizzarelli gave at a clinic at the Lionel Hampton Jazz Festival a few years ago.

There are usually one or two very safe notes that work against all (or almost all) of the chords in the tune. Pizzarelli's suggestion was to make those notes your "theme" for a solo. The other thing is you can use those notes to "play it safe" while waiting to hear where you are. If you do it right (something easier said than done, of course), you can even pull it off as something to build tension until you really cut loose at the start of the next chorus.

Just something to think about!

Geoff

[kcp]

Can you recognise a tune just by listening to the chord changes? And can you “hear” the melody in your head? If not, that’s where your problem is. Pay attention to the bass. The bass line is like a song on its own, and it’s telling you where you are going next. If you can’t hear that, maybe it’s because you haven’t yet begun to pay attention to that– I know, it’s not easy since when you play, you focus on your playing, and it's making it difficult to listen to what else is going on around. Like everything else, it is something that can be learned - If you have a piano or keyboard at home, one excellent exercise to help you learn this is to take a fake book (or lead sheets of the tunes you play) and play the bass part following the chord changes. Start with simple, just the tonic. Eventually you’ll want to move on to tonic and 3rds, tonic and 5ths and to tonic 3rds and 5ths. This will definitely help make you more aware of what the bass is playing.

It worked for me. :D

[JL]

I struggle with this also, especially when not playing something very familiar, like blues changes. All the above suggestions are very good. Another thing to focus on is your phrasing. Try playing in two and four bar phrases. That will help you keep your place and also will sound good rhythmically.

[clem]

To be sure sure I'm in the right place, I pause and listen for the chord changes for the next bar or two(assuming the piano player or guitarist knows where he is).

Evidently a LOT of jazz musicians did this when playing standards. In fact, I think that's why Miles Davis always liked his piano players to feed him nice full block chords. He would go out on a limb sometimes and depend on Red Garland or whoever to keep his place. I suppose that's why he wouldn't play with Monk, whose odd substitutions and strange accents would get Miles lost.