How Many left ?

[madav]

I'm kind of curious, everyone - including non-musicians - knows about the desirability of Selmer VIs - reflected of course in their market price. So how many are still in circulation at this time ? How easy is it for example to pick up a 5-digit VI if that's what you want ?
Checking ebay, there certainly doesn't seem to be a shortage of them available, and there are continually 'mint' versions on offer, so either they were cherished and cared for from the beginning, they are particularly hard-wearing or there are simply loads still floating around...

Any thoughts ?

[BlockAM]

Well, the VI had Selmer's longest production duration ever, about 20 years. During that span more than 200,000 horns were produced, and VI sopranos and baris were made until the mid 80's, until the Series II came out. So when you take this into consideration, there are a ton of them, and the later ones really aren't too old at all, and they were built to last! In the U.S. there isn't a shortage of them at all. So the high price that they command is a simple product of consumer demand. The horns have such a reputation that people are willing to pay outrageous prices for them. My tech told me that in the 80's you could buy a used VI tenor for around $1000. Sometimes I wonder if in 30 years, the Series II will be the same way, as, if you factor in inflation, they sell for about the same price now used. However, from what I've heard, in other countries such as Japan, there is a shortage of them. I've even heard rumors of David Sandborn and others trying to buy up all the VIs in Japan in order to corner the market. Don't know if this is true though, but is interesting, nonetheless.

[Larry G]

Two years ago I bought an alto and tenor VI mid 60's birth for $900. each. They both needed an overhaul but go figure ! Both from the same player who needed the dough for a house remodel. Silly boy didn't know you can always get another house! The timing was rough for me but no hesitation was involved. He even through in 3 mouthpieces and a bell mount mic. I am still thanking my friend at the music store for the info. Dumb Luck for sure but I'll take it every time......

[madav]

OK - 200,000 in total - approx 35% altos 35% tenors 30% baritone+soprano ? (I'm wild-guessing here),

leaves us with approx 70,000 e.g. tenors manufactured, survival rate of maybe 50% ? - leaves us with a potential of 35,000 VI tenors.... not actually too many for a world population of over 6 billion, but then fortunately not everyone wants to play the tenor sax (!)

In a similar vein, if VIs started at 57000, then 43,000 5-digits were made (!) of which approx 15000 either tenor/alto and there are 7500 of each remaining - not so many but more htan enought to keep oneperson happy.....

[Dr G]

Yep, they are still around. I just played a true closet five digit Mk VI last weekend. Amazing to see, feel, and play such a piece of history. The good news (for me) is that I prefer my Borgani and my Ref 36.

[Anonymous]

well, the 5 digit horns will be the hardest to turn up, as selmer started the Mark VI run at around 54,000 or so, which would give you about 46,000 horns to look at. However, factoring out soprano & bari, plus these are the oldest and most likely to be lost/trashed/gone, puts these into the hardest to find category.
Also, you need to remember that even tho the US is Selmer's biggest market, ALL of the horns didn't land in the US. No telling how many of these babies are stuffed in a closet in Europe, or in the attic in the 'outback' of Australia, etc., etc., etc.

Interestingly enuf, if past trends continue, there should be a steady stream of these early horns, including closet horns, turn up during the next 10-15 yrs, as a kid who got a new Mark VI while in high school is probably around 60 yrs old today, and as these people age/retire/die off, these events cause closets to be cleaned out and horns to be sold...

[Stacey]

amasax,

So... Thank heavens for the aging of the baby boomers, because those of us who are (slightly) younger will inherit their Mark 6's?

A non-sax-player might disagree with me, but in MY opinion, that kinda makes up for the strain the Boomers will put on the Social Security system! I never counted on getting either Social Security OR a Mark 6 tenor, so either one will be fine!

"Set your expectations low enough, and you will never be disappointed".

[madav]

sacrilegious words from the Doc !

I just picked up an early 5-digit tenor - without even looking for one - and so I'm kind of curious as to how 'rare' a beast it is.

ANyone have any ideas on the proportion of horns exported ti USA - I presume that this was always the biggets market ?

[Dr G]

sacrilegious words from the Doc !

Whence the sacrilege? I didn't say it was a bad horn or had a trashy sound. I merely stated that, after playing all the horns, I preferred my Borgani and Ref 36. I'm happy to have had the experience of playing at least one truly mint, fully original, much revered piece of history. It even had the original, moderately stiff, spring tension.

Have you tried a Borgani Jubilee? :D

Go for the tone.

[Larry G]

I will have to be quick with this or I will ramble on ..... but you must grow into a good horn and I am sure all our bent brass is more alive after a month or so in our hands be it French, Italian or German. I like all my horns but they play there own song, some are easy, some are sweet, some are just nasty and all are fun for Lar. Hard choice but I still need a few more options just to make sure. I've been wrong before..............

[Anonymous]

Stacey, watch that boomer trash tawk, kiddo... :evil:

i'z a boomer myself...and, fwiw, WAY back when i wuz still a youngun, i really worried when socsec tax went up from the 4.x % it was then...NEVER dreamed it'd get all the way up to the current 7.65%...that, along with a trip to NYC 20+ yrs ago, where sales tax was 8% really blew my mind...well, sleepy town i live in has had 8.025 sales tax for a while now...this crap never seems to stop...
I, too, never counted on socsec, as it's always looked like a ponzi scheme...but, the real people to blame are voters/non-voters, as the clowns in Wash DC will only get away with what they can and still keep being voted in...be aware that Congress has it's own retirement system, as THEY're not gonna take a chance on socsec...

The thing to remember as a young-un, is that with *very* few exceptions, that hot, 'gotta get it now' horn deal really will come around again, you just have to be ready to pounce at the right time. The public school band programs really started taking off in the 1950s, probably peaked in the 1970s or so, and along with that sucked up a lot of Selmer's best products. So, that stuff's out there, just be patient...also, if you're really hot to trot to get a Mark VI ax, you might try running occasional ads in local/area papers('Thrifty Nickle' down here) looking for saxes; never know what you'll turn up...just be sure you've got some $$ ready to go when sumpin' pops.

Also, remember, contrary to what some people think, the Mark VI ain't the end all of saxes... :wink:

[Dr G]

Also, remember, contrary to what some people think, the Mark VI ain't the end all of saxes... :wink:

Amen. :borg:

[madav]

I'm pretty curious about the Borgani's as well Doc., but there's not a lot of them in circulation and I've only seen one in action, so unless I actually go and pursue one i guess I'm unlikely to get to test.

There's a local player with a silver tenor - distinctive strong sound, but for me it sounded a little 'boomy' - but this may just have been the PA. Does Joe Lovano still endorse them - and if not why not ? (!)

[Dr G]

You're right, there are not a lot in circulation. They only produce about 350 horns a years (so I'm told).

"Boomy"? Maybe so - some people prefer a thin tenor, I don't. Do you consider the robust sound of a vintage Conn or Buescher as boomy too? You may be right about the effects of the PA as well. A horn with a strong midrange may interact negatively with the PA if it too has a strong midrange hump dialed into the EQ.

I don't know about what Joe Lovano is up to these days. I understand that the Borgani Jubilee horns are reasonably popular in Europe. They are limited in the U.S. because of their low volume production and the fact that they have a sole distributor.

I guess I'm just lucky to have one. :borg:

(Hmmm, could we get a smiley Borg???)

[PB]

In my opinion they have to small voices for their heavy body. My 75xxx Mk6 is twice as loud and carries much more. And when you start comparing it with a Chu..................they are 4 times stronger. But that`s just my opinion.

[Dr G]

PB - What horn are you talking about? Even if you got a leaky Jubilee, it wouldn't sound as you describe - unless you just didn't blow through it. :?

As we often acknowledge, different strokes for different folks regarding preferences, but I have to wonder if you're shooting flame bait or ever played a Borg' Jubilee.

[madav]

well I don't want to get carried away with this. The Borgani is clearly a beautiful looking instrument with a distinctive sound, and without actually playing it myself it's difficult to comment on sound production/preferences. Everyone has their own ideas, and sound is primarily a function of the the mpc/player combination and much less to do with the tube you're blowing through.

Having said that I would never refer to either Selmer or the Borgani as 'thin', and personally (in my limited experiance) I have never got on well with Buescher's. On the other hand I've never tried a Conn, although I'm a bit leary of so forking out so much cash for something with such prehistoric keywork (!)

[Joseph Boucher]

Stacey, Most Baby-Boomers won't get that much in Social Security anyway, not like 'their' parents generation. Most likely they will still have to work past the ever increasing retirement age. Secondly, Baby-Boomers are savey to the value of things (thanks to Antique Roadshow, Ebay,SOTW, etc.). When they die the'll take their MK VI's to the grave or 'will' them to their heirs. Joe.

[PB]

Dr G,
forget my post, I was drunk. But, the Borgani was great with a microphone, but it is not a horn to cut through. This is just my opinion.
P.S. Have fun with your horn.

[Dr G]

Thanks for the note, PB, I appreciate the clarification. 8)

As to cutting, it seems just fine with a Lamberson SB if there comes a need. :twisted:

Fun? You bet. :D

[colibri]

Jubilee are great horns with a big sound in my experience. I especially like their baris. Haven't actually played a MarkVI bari so I can't comment on that.

[PB]

DrG,
what kind of music are you playing? This is interesting...
A selmer super from 1935 was stolen from a good friend of mine. He got it from his daddy who bought it in 1949. He replaced it after many tears with a Borgani which he bought direct from the factory in Italy. The horn is really good. But it is in no competition to his Super.........the Selmer was so much better. ???????????????

[russps]

Well, the VI had Selmer's longest production duration ever, about 20 years. During that span more than 200,000 horns were produced, and VI sopranos and baris were made until the mid 80's, until the Series II came out.

You must meen untill the Super action 80 came out, because I have seen several super action 80 (not series II) baris and sopranos.

Russell Schneider

[Stacey]

I've been away from this thread for a while, and I return to find that Amasax has called me a "youngun"! Thanks - I've been miserable ever since I learned that my "balding" spot has tripled in size in the past year. It's nice to be called young, but I just barely miss out of being a Boomer, myself, to be honest. According to my research, I'm one of the oldest living members of Generation X, so maybe one of these days I'll be in as much demand as a 55xxx Mark 6! Maybe?!?

It does seem that a surprising number of 45-year-old VI's turn up on eBay, but I suppose a good part of that is just human perception. If one xx,xxx a day closed on eBay, it would seem to many of us that a LOT of these horns were out there; however, that's still just 365 in a year, out of 46,000 that were made. Still - I would expect that most of the xx,xxx horns remain. Almost all of the original buyers would know better than to throw them away, and a high percentage of those people would have either willed the horns to family members who knew how Daddy felt about his horn, or else would have sold the horns to dealers who know a MK6 from a MexiConn (a poor attempt at a slur, since Nogales, Arizona is in the USA). I'm sure the tales of people finding a VI in Grandma's attic abound, but these will be the exception, rather than the rule. Once again, if you hear the "Grandma's attic" story about 100 horns, you still have to keep in mind that you're talking about 100 out of 46,000.

HOWEVER - we are rapidly getting to the point where many VI's will have changed generations TWICE. Those folks will be less likely to understand the significance of the "dirty, old, smelly sax" they've been given, so we may indeed see an influx of these horns onto the market.

But of course NONE of this explains why my 1980 Mk7 alto plays so sweetly and responsively. And while I'm a firm believer in using the best equipment you can, nothing replaces talent and hard work - if you could hand Charlie Parker a roll of duct tape, a few rubber bands, and some WD40, he could make nice music out of even the worst of horns. Well, he could if he hadn't been in such a rush to soar away from this planet.

So, now we have Marcel Mule up there playing again (finally), Bird on alto, Trane on tenor, Santy Runyon making them new mouthpieces and Jon Van Wie fixing their old ones... these days Heaven is starting to appeal more and more!

Wow, I've digressed badly!!! Um, yes, lots of double-digit VI's probably still exist.

[BlockAM]

russps,

I didn't think that any SA I bari or sopranos were made, but I guess I'm wrong, since you've seen some. Thanks, for setting the record straight. :lol: