An effective lesson.. what's needed?

[-TH]

I have a 12 year old saxophone (alto) student. He has been playing for 4 years now and I started to teach him last fall. Our lesson lasts for 30 minutes.

He is not motivated at all: his parents force him to go to the lessons. Also his behaviour is starting to show some signs of puberty: he is restless and sometimes real mean.

Normally it takes almost 10 minutes until he's ready to play... in other words he assembles his sax very slowly on purpose. So, I'm thinking of ways to motivate him. We play mostly scales and some easy standard jazz tunes. Sometimes I try to tell him about things you can do with your saxophone (different effects for example) trying to get him motivated.. but no.. have you get any ideas for a student like this?

I'm also wondering what would be more effective way to spend 30 minutes. Should I divide the 30 minutes in parts like.. 5 mins of long tones, 10 mins of scales, 5 mins of "prima vista" and the rest 10 mins of playing tunes.. ?? I guess that a clear structure of the lesson would perhaps make him more concentrated and give him less time to fool around.

Thanks!

Tuomas

[Lambik]

I'm no teacher, but I was in the same class with some very unmotivated students. Actually, they don't prepare anything at home and are not quite co-operative. I guess going to talk to the parents is the only way to solve it.

But again, I'm no teacher, but I wouldn't want to work with unmotivated peers myself.

[larry]

I've passed out some CDs of great jazz solo songs (which didn't really reasonate with the kids) and one with great rock/funk solos (Steely Dan, Tower of Power, Pink Floyd, etc.) trying to create some motivation. Unfortunately, yer average 12-yr old doesn't listen to Steely Dan or Pink Floyd (showing my age) - it's hard to motivate kids to play sax when they're listening to non-horn stuff: Poison, Moby, whatever.

How about playing duets with him?

[-TH]

Duets? Yup. That's a good idea! He has troubles playing in tempo so that would perhaps make him focus better.

One problem is also how that strict can I be to him? If he plays wrong he doesn't notice (understand) that at all. And he does that all the time :D I'll become soon a nagging teacher if I comment on every wrong note he plays.. and the "funny" thing is that he considers himself as an excellent player..

But more good ideas how to use 30 minutes effectively? It's a short time, I know...

Tunmas

[Bill Mecca]

What kind of music does he like? is there a favorite player? a Favorite solo or sax part he would want to learn... if so, use that as a jumping off point.

[-TH]

He also doesn't practice home at all. When I asked him "have you practiced your homework?" he just laughed and replied "of course NOT".. well..

I actually have friend who teaches trumpet playing. He has a "unique" style. When the lesson begins he asks the student "have you practiced?" and if the answer is negative he replies "this is not the time or place to practice! Lessons are NOT for practicing your homework! This lesson is over. See you next week!" :shock:

Tuomas

[-TH]

billmecca: I asked him that on the first lesson. His parents want me to teach him jazz/pop. He said that he doesn't listen music a lot, sometimes some classical (that's his favorite).. This is quite conflicting with the parents will.

Tuomas

[Dr G]

"The Inner Game of Music" (book) has some insights that you might find useful regarding sharing criticism in the teaching/leading role. The authors use phrases like "Listen to whether your pitch is matching mine." rather than "Tune your horn."

Have you considered asking the student whether he'd like to learn classical sax (after asking his parent's permission, of course)? It's been my experience that a student motivated to learn anything is better than a student with no motivation at all. He's still going to hit the wall when he has to play in marching band whether his motivating influences are jazz, pop, or classical.

G'luck.

[Bari Gordon]

There is a big difference from hearing good music on cds and seeing good music played live.

I have had students do 180° turnarounds in terms of practice habits and desire after going to a concert to see/hear live music.

If there are good college programs, their concerts can be inspirational, especially if they feature a sax pro/clinician. Alto, is there an opportunity for your student to see you perform?

I suggest picking things that your student does well (or shows improvement on) and making compliments before getting into the criticism. I like the comments Dr G made about how to phrase constructive criticism.

I think that when a student has not practiced for the lesson, it is appropriate for a teacher to express disappointment, but only if the teacher determines that the comments will motivate the student to practice harder for the next lesson. Depending upon the level of the student, this could be a good time to do sight-reading, review previous lessons, do duets, listen to the greats, or listen to the teacher play some. I don't know that I would terminate the lesson.

[Morry]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks so, but I'd tell his parents that you're not interested in teaching anyone who has no desire to play a horn. If he hardly ever even listens to music, I would guess that he's one of those people for whom music doesn't really fit into their lives. There are some folks who just don't care about it.

Free up that slot and find a student who is motivated.

[PaulNYC]

If you are not enjoying it, then don't teach. At least if you were entertained for the 1/2 hour you might get some satisfaction.

[Mel]

Wow. I'm impressed by all you patient souls out there. I remember having a strict teacher: either I practice, or don't come back again.

If the student enjoys music (I'm not sure he does), a live performance can do wonders. I remember that after my school jazz band had a jazz workshop with professional players, our playing improved by leaps and bounds.

[Mel]

And the workshop was nothing big: a few hours of "playing with the pros." I guess being around greatness makes you want to become great too.

[larry]

My wife's singing teacher has a great expression: "Sometimes, you just end up trying to teach a couch".

Or, to quote Dorthy Parker, "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think".

[Nefertiti]

I think some of the responsibilty lies with the parents. Alot of my students parents just want there son and daughter to want to practice and if they don't they just let it go. I tell my parents that they should be just as involved in the kids practicing as they are in their child doing their homework. The parents that help their children to be disciplined have the kids that are doing the best and also love playing the most. I never wanted to practice when I was twelve. I remember my parents always on my case and bugging me to practice. They rented a horn and were paying for lessons . There's no way they would just let me do nothing after their expense for it.
Also as a side note make sure your giving them cool songs in keys that make them learn some new notes and fingerings. LOTR,Star Wars, simpsons theme,wizard of oz,tequila.........stuff like that. Good Luck.

[Nefertiti]

The mindset of "either practice or get out" is up to you. I personally think that is pretty harsh for a 10-12 year old. My goal is to keep them interested in music and have fun. I just remember for me music was a side thing that I really didn't devote a lot of time to until 8th grade. I think if a teacher had kicked me out in 6th or 7th grade because I wasn't practicing I might have ended up as an accountant today. :shock:

[Steve on the web]

-TH : You're a really wholehearted teacher! Well done! At least you're actively sharing your difficulty here. Your student is so lucky as he happened to meet you. From educational psychology, most forms of behavioural change (to play sax/quit smoking/study hard...) follow this more or less the same pattern :

Pretemptation => Temptation => Action => Evaluation => Maintenance

I can see there's a discrepancy in the psychological stage between you and your student. Learning scales/practising technical studies start from action stage and to persevere in practice (maintenance) requires much self-evaluation and encouragement in a constructive manner. Your student was forced by the parents to do something in which he had no vision at all. So there won't be any progress if you keep dragging him from action towards maintenance concentrating on long tones/scales/playing tunes, when he hadn't got the motivation that could only be cultivated by himself (not the parents).

The problem can be solved by some ways as shared by some others above. Going to concerts, feeling the atmosphere in a live, creating a self image that's adorable among the peers...these are good suggestions to build up pretemptation. Tasting a tincture of success in playing duets (or a classical piece if it's his true love) would help in temptation. In short, start teaching outside the classroom first! Also if condition allows, go and explore the family background to some extent. You'll find some clues in solving the underlying problem(s). This option only pertains to those who are genuine and pure in teaching.

Certainly if after all repeated attempts there isn't any sign of progress at all, definitely that's not your problem. Keep the parents delighted but the child bored till he finds the favour in sax, or find some other ways out for the child (if you can figure out his true potential). These're the endpoints.

[gary]

Oh, good grief. Part of growing up is learning to act responsibly. Psychobabble aside, there's nothing amiss with setting standards and expecting a young person (or anyone) to meet them, as long as they are fair and realistic. How much does one really learn about responsibility anyway, when everyone around them is willing to make excuses for them and do just about everything but assemble the horn and blow it themselves?

I think there are some good suggestions above but the student should be expected to be meeting the teacher at least half way. My impression from the initial post is that the kid just couldn't care less and it is not the teacher's responsibility to compensate for that.

Before I'm completely misunderstood, if there is some personal reason you want to stick with this kid, Tuomas, then by all means spend the extra time, effort and money you're not getting compensated for to do it. But if that's not the case tell the kid and his parents that you expect him to meet you half way or your relationship is ended.

I've got a student I've had for almost three years. He's a really good kid. He also has trouble concentrating and doesn't retain or learn very well. I've got another student that's been playing about 9 months who already plays better than the first student. I keep this first student because I can see where he gets some social esteem from playing in band, is benefitted from having to concentrate on music in order to play it, and many other side-effects, not to mention that he likes music.

I've had many conversations with his mother and we work together for the benefit of the child. She has also told me how he has had problems with some of his teachers who can't share or at least tolerate his sens of humour like I can. I also find in this little guy a sense of wonderment and because of all of this, I keep at it. But he meets his resonsibilites to me as well as he can, he doesn't blow them off.

Now, contrast this with your student, Tuomas. If there are similar reasons to stick with him, have at it. But if he couldn't care less about his lessons and makes no effort, to me he is also not showing you any respect and to coddle him is, IMO, giving him the wrong lessons to be learned about life, in general.

I, and my parents, will never forget a significant day in my life as a music student. I and my teacher came downstairs after a particularly lacklustre lesson and he said point blank "Gary is not practicing. He is wasting my time and your money." I had a decision to make right there and then. I can't believe that it would've been to my advantage had my teacher, his advisors and my parents all collaborated to bend over backwards making excuses for me and grasping at straws.

[saxamaphonegirl]

when i was 12 i remember what motivated me to play. it was my favorite music. whether it was a book or easy disney tunes or i would listen to my favorite song and try to play it on my sax.
maybe ask him to prepare some favorite songs to play at your next lesson. you said he likes classical. Saxophone: One Hundred Classical Themes by Wise Publications.(Easy-Medium) it's a neat book.

i WISH my mom had let me to take sax lessons when i was 12. she refused to pay for them because "they are a waste of money". now i know what b.s. that was and how important they are.
if he isn't interested in playing the sax, why should he? as much as i disliked my mom for refusing me sax lessons i disliked her even more for forcing me to take ballet and play softball. (i fell on my rump a lot/i could never hit the ball. ungraceful is my middle name.)

Good Luck. Happy Teaching.

[jasendorf]

I had some of these same frustrations with students (it was partially why I stopped teaching (besides getting a day job which paid better :!: ) and I found that the "fun" song books helped immensely with these types of students. Duets worked well too. I also would "challenge" them to play technical exercises by playing them at increasingly greater speeds to see who could perform the exercise flawlessly the fastest (sometimes I even let them win :wink: )

Another thing you must do is talk to the parents. Especially if they are under 13. The parents still have a lot of sway in what the kids do up until that age and can at least get them to honk a little between lessons.

Lastly, as a student myself at that age... I attribute all of my sight reading skills to not practicing for my lessons... so, you never know what good things might come from their lack of "enthusiasm."

John