turning down the neck while blowing...??

[PB]

this is a question to all S20 owners out there. i had about three king tenor horns in my life. a 295xxx, a 327xxx and now a 349xxx. all have the same problem: when you blow hard, the neck turns down and the octave key will open. i tried a lot more s20 and i think that the models with the single socket neck open much faster than the double socket models. i have been a mk6 player for quite a long time. this problem is just to the kings.
i fixed it with tape a little. now it works for 70% of the jobs. the older horns i had, had a stronger neck. the 400xxx horns i tried had a pleasing sound, but the octave key on the neck...i don`t know. they feel so weak. anyone with the same problems and how to solve them............???

[shmuelyosef]

You should be able to blow hard without pushing your teeth into the mouthpiece harder. Many students have difficulty pushing the volume without 'biting' (i.e. using a jaw clenching to provide embouchre support). You need to practice relaxing your jaw and providing the embouchre support with your cheek and lip muscles. An exercise I have found useful for this: practice long tones by starting soft (subtone if possible), gradually and smoothly crescendo to full volume and then decrescendo to a whisper. Practice over the full tonal range of the horn paying close attention to: 1) intonation...don't let the notes go flat as you get loud 2) jaw tension...keep your jaw relaxed, use you facial muscles 3) air support...use your abdominal muscles, not your face or chest to provide support.

...hope this is helpful...you should not have to bend your horn with your face to play loud.

[PB]

That`s nice, but not the answer I looked for. It`s just the construction of the sterling-neck I wonder about. This neck seems weaker than other necks.

[Saxturtle]

PB, I have an S20, 379XXX, but I've never had any problems with the neck (double socket sterling underslung). What do you mean by 'turning down'? Please elaborate :D

[Saxturtle]

OOps, I see what you mean now. So, the neck gets warm and actually flexes away from the octave key pad? That must be some really spirited playing! Perhaps you could introduce some 'slop' between the vertical actuator rod on the sax body and the horizontal bar on the octave key so there's a bit of take up to compensate for neck flex. Hmmm. Never had this problem. Are you sure all the bracing is in place and soldered adequately at both ends or along the entire brace's length? Maybe your tenon to neck tolerance is too large and needs adjustment. If you are able to wobble your neck in the vertical plane very much before tightening the tenon screw this could be the issue.

[Mike Ruhl]

Never had any neck problems with my 364xxx Super 20 tenor with the silver, double-socket neck. But then I don't change the angle of the horn depending on how hard I blow, either. I'm not sure what you think the problem is. The Super 20 necks are not necessarily weak by design.

[larry]

Don't have that problem on my 380xxx silver, single-socket neck. There is a little bit of play in the socket, but not nearly enough to open the octave key.

Is the problem that the tenon on the neck is deformed or that the socket has expanded over the years? Can the socket be squished down some?

[PB]

Weak is the wrong word. The neck is in my opinion too flexible. No other horn I owned had this problem. Sure, when you play hard, you have more pressure on the neck.
But also the very early S20s I had, and they have a stronger neck than the 340xxx models and later, had this problem.
With a little pressure the neck turns down for about 2 mm, and when you have a super tight octave mechanik, the octave key could open slightly.
That`s all. I HATE IT !!!
P.S.: The Mk6 I have has no problems at all with my playing...

[Mike Ruhl]

I think this problem is unique to your neck. Mine is solid and tight. And again, I don't necessarily agree that "when you play hard you have pressure on the neck". You might try a different neck strap.

[Bari Gordon]

I have seen two Super 20 silver necks with additional braces soldered to them. One was just a 1/4" straight silver rod about 6 inches long, the other a more elaborate design. Both attached just above the socket to just after the cork.

I talked to the repair man who was selling one of them and he said that the silver neck had flexibility issues.

One of the above is a single socket, I don't remember the other one.

[alain]

I have the same problem too. this is my second silversonic, with the first one I never have that problem but with the last one, I have some repair made on the neck from an accident, and from this time it as more flex now. Each silversonic are from the same period (around 1965), so it have nothing to do with the quality vs period. a bent metal is always weak later where it was bent, but it's true that the silver is a more flexible than the brass.

[PB]

Now I have the word......flexible.
Today I had an eight hour studio job. It was hard. And at the end again, I got a little bit tired. I managed it again to play too hard. The pressure on the neck got a little too much. So in the middle of the song the tone broke. The neck turned down a little again and the octave key opened slightly.
My Selmer never had these problems. I also think it is the silver that makes this neck more flexible.
Take a finger and try to bend down the neck a little on a S20. It is so EASY!! This would never work on a Selmer.
P.S. I talk about Tenorsaxes!!!

[TenorReinier]

The 390K s20 tenor I just bought has a silver neck with two guards/braces soldered onto it. The tech told me it's the silver that makes the neck somewhat more fragile, or flexible as you wish.

The braces look actually kinda nice, the tech did a good job. They are quite elaborate and fit the design of the neck. For some this may be an issue, I don't really care as long as it protects my neck without damping the resonance. I'll post some pics when I have them.