why ebonite/hard rubber instead of metal?

[VilleK.]

Could someone tell my why are beginners adviced to begin to play with ebonite/hard rubber mouhpieces? Why couldn´t one begin with a metal mpc? What´s the problem with that?

Thanks!

[Dr G]

Because metal mouthpieces are just a phase that one must go through before "discovering" that hard rubber 'pieces are the true path to acquiring Tone. Those instructors are just trying to save you the anguish of spending many years and considerable money buying and trying metal mouthpieces only until you find that a good hard rubber mouthpiece is what you were looking for all the time. :wink:

Has anyone else read "The Alchemist"? 8)

[tubbycub]

Is that true?

What I know is that HR mpcs are easier to control in terms of intonation compared to metal ones.

[saxguy9345]

It is also my understanding that metal pieces are more delicate to temperature and atmosphere, and are touchy pieces in general.

They are also (billions) more expensive than HR/ebonite pieces and beginner students do not need to spend 3 figures to get a correct sound out of a sax. Take the money you would've spent on a metal mouthpiece and get a metronome, or digital tuner. Much more useful.

[VilleK.]

OK. I just wanted to know if it´s easier to learn to play the sax when the used mouthpiece is made of hard rubber/ebonite.

[clem]

I can't agree that material makes no difference. Two identical mpcs one made of rubber and the other of metal would sound different.

[kcp]

OK. I just wanted to know if it´s easier to learn to play the sax when the used mouthpiece is made of hard rubber/ebonite.

The material that the mouthpiece is made of doesn't make learning easier. What does make the difference is the type of mouthpiece; the design. Tip size, baffle, rails, etc...

For instance, when you buy a new saxophone it usually comes with a stock mouthpiece. Some are of better quality than others depending of the manufacturer, but these are "standard" mouthpiece. Metal mouthpieces are designed to meet specific needs such as more edge, more velocity, ease in the altissimo register, all kind of things like that. Which does that these mpcs are not "your standard mpc" and may not be suitable for a beginner.

One must learn to walk before starting to run :wink:

[Mike Ruhl]

OK. I just wanted to know if it´s easier to learn to play the sax when the used mouthpiece is made of hard rubber/ebonite.And the answer is 'yes'. Hard rubber is not as dense a material as the metals most commonly used to build sax mouthpieces (brass, bronze, stainless steel), so rubber begins to vibrate along with the reed much more easily and quickly than metal. This translates into notes being easier to play - you don't have to blow as hard to start the note. Metal mouthpieces are sometimes referred to as having a "punchy" sound - what this really means is that you have to "punch" the airflow a little harder with a metal moutpiece to get the sound going, due to the resistance of the metal to the vibrations of the reed. That's not to say you can't learn to play with a metal mouthpiece, but it does explain why some teachers think rubber is better for students. Rubber mouthpieces are also cheaper than metal ones, so that plays into it, too.

Kim's comments about the quality of facing are all true, and certainly I'd rather see someone learning on a properly-faced metal mouthpiece than an improperly-faced rubber one. But that's not what the original question was about.

[Les22]

I just assumed it's because plastic mps are cheaper than metal, so students horns are supplied with plastic mp's.

[Dr G]

Metal mouthpieces are designed to meet specific needs such as more edge, more velocity, ease in the altissimo register, all kind of things like that.

That may also be the case of hard rubber or synthetic mouthpieces - all of what you cite are functions of geometry rather than material.

[Dr G]

Metal mouthpieces are sometimes referred to as having a "punchy" sound...

... and some metal mouthpieces are characterized as stuffy and dull... Really, folks, it's the design, NOT the material.

We've traveled this road soooooo many times... :cry:

[Mike Ruhl]

I just assumed it's because plastic mps are cheaper than metal, so students horns are supplied with plastic mp's.No, you're right: plastic mpcs are cheaper, and that's why they're generally what you get with a student horn. But "plastic" is not the same thing as "hard rubber/ebonite". And not all "hard rubber" is "ebonite".

[Mike Ruhl]

... and some metal mouthpieces are characterized as stuffy and dull... Really, folks, it's the design, NOT the material.
It's the design AND/OR the material.

[mark_m]

Far as I can tell the difference in design and quality of execution seems to outweigh the differences in materials. Given I'm only through a couple dozen mouthpieces so far, just my impression.

Quality of the facing seems especially important for a given design. I've certainly had easy and hard to play plastic pieces as well as metal pieces.

A good, affordable piece that's been hand-refaced seems like a good way to go as an economical alternative to full-on hand-made pieces.

[Mike Ruhl]

Yes, yes, yes...but the orginal question was "which is better for a beginner". All other things equal, rubber is better for beginners because of its easier response.

[kcp]

Metal mouthpieces are designed to meet specific needs such as more edge, more velocity, ease in the altissimo register, all kind of things like that.

That may also be the case of hard rubber or synthetic mouthpieces - all of what you cite are functions of geometry rather than material.

Absolutely. That may also be the case of hard rubber or synthetic mouthpieces – But if we must get into zealously specific details and write a thesis about it :lol: then I guess I must specify that I was trying to provide one answer in a generally speaking kind of way, without starting to enumerate every possible exceptions there may be, in order to answer as simply as possible to the question that was asked by a beginner who really just want to know why it is often advised to beginners to play with HR mpc. :wink:

[kcp]

...rubber is better for beginners

Oh! I got it "rubber is better for beginners " cause er.. it rhymes with "er"?? :wink:

okay, I'm gonna shut up and go away now...

[Mike Ruhl]

Oh! I got it "rubber is better for beginners " cause er.. it rhymes with "er"?? :wink:
er...yeah... :roll:

[Gordon (NZ)]

I can't agree that material makes no difference. Two identical mpcs one made of rubber and the other of metal would sound different.
What is your evidence?

[clem]

Hard evidence would be hard to come by here, but I would trust my own observations, ears, personal experience, and the stuff I was taught when I first began playing saxophone in 1958.

Metal mouthpieces used to be called "jazz mouthpieces" because of their loudness and raunchy tone. When I played my first Berg I realized what they were talking about. I now play a Dukoff L8 and I don't believe there is another mpc made from HR, plastic, wood, crystal, acrylic, or whatever that could sound just like it.

[Ritchie]

Metal mouthpieces used to be called "jazz mouthpieces" because of their loudness ...

This is simply not true. Selmer offers a metal mouthpiece for classical palying and the plastic Runyons with their spoiler, hard rubber RPC or Vandoren Jumbo Javas are really loud, just to name a few examples...

Why is it that if you have two boxes of equal weight, but one of them is white and the other one black, that people will tell you the black one is heavier? A shiny metal mouthpiece simply looks like it had to sound brighter and louder than a black hard rubber one. And with a given mouthpiece design and setup you still can play brighter or darker depending on how you blow into that piece.

[Mike Ruhl]

I can't agree that material makes no difference. Two identical mpcs one made of rubber and the other of metal would sound different.
What is your evidence?I won't speak for clem, but my evidence is many years of playing experience. But don't take our word for it - try it for yourself: order a Runyon Quantum in both the metal and Delrin versions, play-test them against each other, and tell me you can't tell a difference. These mouthpieces are exactly the same design, made on the same machines, just from different materials.

Just remember, I always stress that the most noticeable difference is in the response, not the sound.

[VilleK.]

Thanks everyone!

Hmmm.... Maybe I´ll try first a hard rubber (or ebonite) mouthpiece that has medium facing, medium tip opening, medium bore... Medium ALL...
Any suggestions? I know that it´s a personal thing, but still...

If it matters, the mpc would come for Dave Guardala 501BN tenor...

[clem]

VilleK:

I believe the Otto Link "Tone Edge" (hard rubber) mpc is hard to beat for sound, response, and price. For tenor a #6* or 7 is a good compromise. But take your horn to the store and try out more than one.

There are lots of good mouthpieces out there and they all play and sound a little different from each other.

[JfW]

The loudest alto mpc I've ever played was a hard-rubber Ponzol. My Metal Selmer Classical, which is part of my regular Tenor setup, gives me only average comparative projection.

I use it because I liked it's sound and it was sold to me cheap. It's the only metal peice I've ever tried that I liked.

I'm not an accoustical expert, but I believe metal may give a player a false sense of projection due to the increased vibration that seems to be inherent in metal pieces due to the physical nature of the material itself. That would mean, unless i am mistaken, that metal mouthpieces allow more energy to transfer from the excited wind column inside the chamber to the space surrounding the mouthpiece. In other words, making the player think he is louder, but in effect making him softer from the audiences perspective.

or am I wrong?

[VilleK.]

The mouthpiece, that I´m looking for, shouldn´t make an overly dark sound - I think that a bright mpc would fit better the Guardala, because it isn´t so bright sounding sax..
Hmm... Maybe a medium baffle/medium tip opening/medum facing (and small chamber?). Maybe a 105 tip opening or so? It propably wont make a big difference whether it´s made of hard rubber or ebonite.
There are NO mpcs nowhere near here. I would have to jump in a buss and take a two day trip to a music shop that has a "good" mpc collection - and even it doesn´t have much to offer: a few Links, some Vandorens (mainly for classical music) - and even less mpcs for tenor! And they´re really expencive here.

I´ve thought about getting one of these (or something else maybe):
Otto Link hard rubber/ebonite #6-#7*
RIA #5*-6* (may be a bit difficult to get)
Meyer HR 7M-10M

I´m beginning to lean towards the Otto Link hr/e mpc.

So many brands to choose from: Vandoren, Dukoff, Meyer, Runyon, Rousseau, Selmer, BARI, Beechler etc. etc. So many sizes, different designs, materials...

[VilleK.]

I should propably choose a mouthpiece that has medium tip opening, chamber, baffle, facing... Medium ALL.

Any idea of what tip opening I should begin with? I may do the right thing if I avoid the extremes and take "the golden middle road". 65 (=thousandths of an inch) tip opening (=t.o. from now on) might be overly small and 130 would be too long. Should I choose exactly from the middle, 95-100 t.o.? WHAT would I achieve/loose/suffer from, if I choose a mpc with 65 t.o. instead of mpc with 100 t.o.? WHAT are the changes when moving from the 65 to 100? Could someone please tell me... Thanks.

I´ve thought about getting an #6 Otto Link "Tone Edge" ebonite tenor mpc, that has 90 t.o. I wonder if it´s too open?

[clem]

There are several good discussions about mouthpieces on this website and also links to places like "Mouthpiece Heaven". I think you will find good reliable information for questions like you are asking. But as you can see, saxophonists, like all musicians, sometimes strongly disagree on matters of preference.

Personally, I would think a Link #6 would be fine if you are just beginning to play. And Stan Getz I think played a Link #6 as his preferred mouthpiece for many years. Also, John Coltrane played a metal Link with a 6 or 6* tip. Cannonball Adderley used a Meyer #5 on his alto. But on the other hand Sonny Rollins and most contemporary players prefer a much more open tip.

In general, the more open the tip, the harder the reed; the more open the tip, the softer the reed. Also, in general, beginners should not try to play on open mpcs because it takes a stronger embouchure to keep them in tune. Do you have a teacher? What does he recommend?

[BobD]

VilleK.,

So you have decided to get the Guardala horn? It played well then?

As far as OttoLink HR pieces you will need to try a few to get a decent one. And get a Selmer lig for it. The brass one for HR pieces. Also, V16 and Alexander DC reeds work well for me on my HR 7*. Other pieces you might try are the Vandoren Java(not jumbo java), and a Ralph Morgan. The Vandoren pieces seem to have a good reputaion on this forum. The Ralph Morgan is know as one of the best mouthpieces out there, HR or Metal.

[VilleK.]

In general, the more open the tip, the harder the reed; the more open the tip, the softer the reed. Also, in general, beginners should not try to play on open mpcs because it takes a stronger embouchure to keep them in tune. Do you have a teacher? What does he recommend?

Do you mean, that the less open the tip, the softer the reed?

Well, my sax tutor has recommended an ebonite Selmer C*, that has a 70 t.o. Otto Link Tone Edge #6 would have 90 t.o. I wonder if it´s a big difference? My tutor is recommending the C*, because he was recommended to use it. He doesn´t use other mpcs.

BobD, actually, I haven´t met the seller yet and I haven´t played the Guardala. I will meet him in the end of this month and play test the Guardala and have it checked by a friend of my sax tutor. If everything clicks and I can play it, I will most likely buy it.

What advantages does a wide tip opening have? And a small tip opening? I have read somewhere that the altissimo is harder to play with a small (very close) tip opening.
What would I achieve/loose/suffer from, if I choose a mpc with wide tip opening instead of small tip opening?

A quote from myself:
"There are NO mpcs nowhere near here. I would have to jump in a buss and take a two day trip to a music shop that has a "good" mpc collection - and even it doesn´t have much to offer: a few Links, some Vandorens (mainly for classical music) - and even less mpcs for tenor! And they´re really expencive here. "

It isn´t easy for me to find a pleasing mpc. It isn´t easy to find mouthpieces here...

[gary]

Ville, Clem just punched a wrong button. He meant (is it OK to speak for you, Clem?) that "the more closed the tip, the harder the reed; the more open the tip, the softer the reed". That's just a general ratio.

[VilleK.]

OK. Thanks for telling me that.
So... #4-5 reeds are best suited for 65 (and a bit over that) t.o. mpc and #2-2,5 are best suited for (about) 120 t.o.? And perhaps #2-3,5 reeds work best with a medium t.o. (95-105)? It might not be exactly like this...

[clem]

Oops. Sorry VilleK. Thanks gary.

VilleK.:

Whichever mouthpiece you choose, I wouldn't recommend anything harder than a #2 1/2 reed to start with, especially if you are going to use Vandorens. In fact, I would start with #2's.

Once you develop your embouchure, you can gradually move up to stiffer reeds if you want to. And of course, the same goes for your mouthpiece. But for a beginner, the important thing is that your set-up should be easy to blow.

And why don't you order your stuff over the internet or by mail? Most companies will allow you to return a mpc as long as you don't leave toothmarks on it (put some tape over the top of the beak when you are trying it out).

[VilleK.]

Also, in general, beginners should not try to play on open mpcs because it takes a stronger embouchure to keep them in tune.

And with open mouthpieces it is recommended to use softer reeds. Soft reeds are recommended for beginners, who haven´t yet developed their emouchure enough for stiffer reeds. Beginners are adviced to begin with mpcs, that have more close tip openings, but those kind of mpcs need stiff reeds, that aren´t recommended for beginners.... Isn´t this funny?

[Walnuts]

I really recommend just staying with that stock mouthpiece that came along with horn or just getting a 20 dollar yamaha or Hite one. When I was a beginner, I changed the size of reed I up one half step used every 2 monthes because my embrochur steadily grew stronger with more practice. I did not stop changing until I was using Traditional Vandoren 4s. So, it'll be hard to just plan out what you want your setup to be because you've still got a lot growing to do. I

f you buy a Otto Link 6* and begin using 2.5 reeds, you may very soon grow out of those soft reeds and begin using reeds like 3s or 3.5s, which would suit that facing of 6* very well. On the other hand, if you were to buy a piece with an opening of 100-110, then I wish you the best of luck getting a good sound out of them. It is not as simple using a soft reed on an open tipped piece as it is to use a hard reed on a more closed tipped piece. When beginners use soft reeds, they generally sacrafice good tone for edge or more playability. It takes alot of control to get a good tone out of a mouthpiece with an opening of 120 while using a size 2.5 reed, even though the reed is soft.

Ebonite doesn't always mean easier playability and more punch compared metal ones. Granted that its true in a lot of cases. But compare an Otto Link STM (metal) to a Berg Larsen Ebonite, and the Otto Link STM will be like a pussy cat going up against a jaguar, the Berg Larsen Ebonite.

I acutally also recommend that Hard Rubber Otto Link with a facing of 6 for you. The tip should be closed enough for you to get a good sound without too much difficulty while still have enough room for adjustments.

[Gordon (NZ)]

....I really recommend just staying with that stock mouthpiece that came along with horn or just getting a 20 dollar yamaha or Hite one..

My wee, small voice agrees.

[VilleK.]

Thanks!
I´ll propably try the ebonite (or hard rubber?) Otto Link "Tone Edge" mpc with a facing of 6 and some #2,5(-3½) reeds with it. Thanks for your advices. Now I wont spend too much on soft reeds, and I wont buy too difficult mpc to begin with. Thanks again.

[Claus]

As to the question of the effects of mpc material there is another interesting thread:

http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=11387