My "new" old Grassi alto

[DetroitDave]

I now have three vintage Grassi horns. An old tenor which is from the pre-Mark VI era judging by the key layout and the left hand pinky cluster, that I bought in December which had been previously restored. A second "jade rollers" tenor that I bought for an embarrassingly low price from SOTW member JMac (not to be confused with J Max) and which just arrived yesterday; that one needs a lot of work and is now in the shop (but looks gorgeous).

And this one, an alto I took a chance on from eBay about a month ago. Bought it from a new seller with no previous eBay history. After talking to the guy, who runs an antique shop in Oklahoma and had found the horn in a closet when he was buying out the estate leftovers of his friend's grandma who passed away over the winter, I decided he was a good risk. Lucky me! My horn tech, Gary Rybolt in Missouri, says he loves this horn! I just got it back yesterday from the shop and it is a real player! My alto chops aren't what they ought to be (I mainly honk on tenors) but this horn surely does sound sweet!

Gary plays a low serial number Mark VI alto himself and he says he likes this Grassi alto every bit as much. His son has a ref54 alto and likes the sound of this one better! Wow.

Questions for you Grass-o-philes... Any ideas how old this alto is? The serial number on the horn says 8867 and the neck says 867 (so I assume they're a matched set -- see pics). There is no model name or number that I can determine, just Ida Marie Grassi. Same for the two tenor horns; no ID's other than the serial numbers. Anyway, any information or thoughts you guys might have on the model, age, etc. and comparisons to the ones you know about would be most welcome!

This is my first attempt at posting images, so I hope it works. If so, I'll take some pics of my "old" restored tenor and upload them later, too, if you guys want to see them.

[tictactux]

The keywork suggests it's a Grassi Professional, from around the 70s.
(I got a Martin Busine which is a GP stencil, and short of the bell brace it looks just like yours - including the spotty lacquer, and especially the LH pinky table) Mine has a 20xxx number, also with a similarly matching neck, but I wouldn't be so bold as to say they shared serial numbers...
Here (http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=71997)'s a thread with pictures.

[DetroitDave]

Thanks! There is so much confusion about the various Grassi models (and their ages) that it's really hard to know but it does look like that first one in the pics from the earlier thread. The guy I got it from said the grandson of the lady it belonged to thought she had it in the mid to late 1960's. But it could well be from the 70's. It is keyed very much like the Grassi tenor I have (and love!) and is in the same serial number range. But who knows if the alto and tenor serial numbers even correlate to each other? Maybe LeGrand (the SOTW member who is went to Italy last week -- 2nd to last post in the thread you linked) will learn more and share it with us here.

[Sidepipes]

The keywork suggests it's a Grassi Professional, from around the 70s.
(I got a Martin Busine which is a GP stencil, and short of the bell brace it looks just like yours - including the spotty lacquer, and especially the LH pinky table) Mine has a 20xxx number, also with a similarly matching neck, but I wouldn't be so bold as to say they shared serial numbers...
Here (http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=71997)'s a thread with pictures.

Hi, I have a "Jade" series alto with serial of 22XXX , that has the jade rollers and G# key, nickel keys, and the ring bell brace. I also have a "Professional", which is so labeled, below the thumb rest. My Professional also has the high F# key. From your 8XXX serial number, yours may have been built prior to the Jade series.

My Grassi's are nice horns. Enjoy!

-- Sidepipes

[Captain Beeflat]

Is there both a "Professional" and a "Professional 2000" model?

[Sidepipes]

Is there both a "Professional" and a "Professional 2000" model?

My alto only has the word "Professional". I've seen pictures of horns that have "Professional 2000" as well. J.Max did a comparison of two soprano's, one a Model 2000, and another a Professional 2000. So, Perhaps we have Professional, Model 2000 and Professional 2000. Marketing strikes again?

-- Sidepipes

[J.Max]

Is there both a "Professional" and a "Professional 2000" model?


Yes. The "Professional 2000" was made much later than the "Professional". As best I can tell right now, the "Professional 2000" was a horn from the 90s - the "Professional" is a horn from the 60s-70s. That horn with that early of a serial number is probably closer to the late 60s...the stencils were actually made slightly later. The stencils, which include the Martin Busine, Alexandre, and some Evettes do not follow the standard Grassi serial numbers.

In other words, while Grassi was producing the "Jade" series, they were also producing the stenciled horns using older equipment.

All of this is based on anecdotal evidence right now. (I do have approximate dates on the horn models, but nothing complete yet. I've also yet to figure out how the "Wonderful" horns fit in.) I'm trying to put together a serial number chart, but it's very difficult because I can't find out how many horns were put out by the Grassi factory each year under their own name. There are no records, and even the "new" Grassi (to whom I have written) doesn't have records on the old instruments. They merely use the name and logo.

[DetroitDave]

J.Max, you are doing the music world a great service by doing all this research and compiling all this Grassi info into one place. Can't wait to see what you come up with! I've combed these threads and I think I've read them all but it's hard to know what's what from just the anecdotal evidence, so much of it seemingly conflicting.

I wonder if LeGrand has returned yet from Italy and if he was able to gather any useful information from his vist. Anyone heard?

I'll post pics in a day or two of a Grassi tenor that I've had for a month or so. Would like very much for you and others to weigh in on what it is. It has the older style "flat" left pinky cluster like the alto and the same style G# key but it says "Made in Italy" on the bell in English, instead of the Italian like the alto has. It's a 12xxx serial number, so I suspect it's of a similar vintage (whatever that is!). I bought it as a backup for my Mark VI but I find myself playing it more than the VI. I really love its sound. Plus its even easier to whisper in the low range. Quite the horns, these Grassis.

[Captain Beeflat]

J.Max,


I bought it as a backup for my Mark VI but I find myself playing it more than the VI. I really love its sound. Plus its even easier to whisper in the low range. Quite the horns, these Grassis.

DD.
You are not the first to say this. I think that the word has got around how good these horns are...one seldom sees a Professional 2000 tenor for sale nowadays.
Have you tried a professional 2000? In my view, the equal of a good Mk6 in every respect; or, at least, mine is...a glorious sax.

[DetroitDave]

DD.
You are not the first to say this. I think that the word has got around how good these horns are...one seldom sees a Professional 2000 tenor for sale nowadays.
Have you tried a professional 2000? In my view, the equal of a good Mk6 in every respect; or, at least, mine is...a glorious sax.

Capt. Beeflat, I would love to try one of the newer real Italian Grassi Professional 2000 horns and it would be really great fun to compare it to the much older ones I have. If they managed to combine the light touch and better ergonomics of the VI keyboard and still retain the sound and intonation of the old horns, then they must really be something. But, like you said, they are pretty hard to find.

I do have one significant complaint about the old Grassis I have: the left hand thumb button rest is way too small. There may be some other ergonomic issue with them as well that I haven't yet put my finger -- er, thumb -- on yet, too. But I've noticed my left thumb gets quite tingly, and eventually numb, after playing the Grassis for a good while. In the past few days I'm also starting to notice that the tingling/numbness seems to be more persistent (doesn't go away after playing) and some (tendon?) discomfort in my left thumb area. It could be that the smaller/different button rest requires a different left hand positioning or something. But in any case, it's not near as "comfortable" (if that's the word for it) as the much larger left thumbrest button of the Mark VI. Do the newer Professional 2000 models have the larger VI-like button?

Also, does anyone know of any aftermarket products or add-ons that can help with a too-small left thumbrest button problem?

[Captain Beeflat]

I agree that apparently minor issues can be really irritating...and painful. Features such as this can ruin one's enjoyment of an otherwise ideal horn. May I suggest that you change the thumbrest with a larger diameter example...they must be available at Ferres?
The Professional 2000 has a huge, slightly convex LH thumb rest.

[DetroitDave]

May I suggest that you change the thumbrest with a larger diameter example...they must be available at Ferres?
The Professional 2000 has a huge, slightly convex LH thumb rest.

Yes, I'd like to do that. Just spent an hour or so poring over Ferree's website and all four pdf installments of their catalog but could find nothing like left hand button thumb rests. I sent an email; maybe they do have something that will work that's not listed in their catalog. Will report on results, if any.

I presume the octave thumb key on the Professional 2000 horn is offset to the right of center, like the VI's? On the older ones, the octave key is directly above the raised button LF thumbrest. This could also explain some of the discomfort -- just a different stretching motion to get to the key. But it's still way too small to keep a normal sized thumb on the darn thing. I think most of the numbing sensation comes from pressing on it with the thumb off centered and half way off it because it's just too small in diameter.

[Captain Beeflat]

DD
The thumbrest on the Pro 2000 is offset to the left of centre when viewed from the rear of the horn; ie. as if playing. It is 20mm in diameter.
Is it not possible to make up some sort of "bodge"...perhaps a crescent moon shaped lump of rubber to temporarily stick to the left of your thumbrest?.
It is also possible, of course, to solder a piece of shaped brass plate to the octave key in order to shape it as you wish. In fact, I cut some off mine...it originally swept around to the right of the thumbrest (as viewed from the rear) & I was always accidentally catching it.

[DavyRay]

DetroitDave, I have the Grassi tenor shown in that previous thread, serial # 92xx, said to be a Professional from the 1960's or so. It has a black plastic LH thumb rest, about the diameter of a nickle. It is nearly flat. It and the octave key are to the left of center.

There was a suggestion in the Repair forum about carving a LH thumb rest which was the desired size, and which fit over the existing rest. A dab of hot glue would keep it in place, and would be easy to remove later on. One suggestion was to use cork. Might be a good temporary solution, and a way to try out the fix.

I'm really impressed with my Grassi tenor. It's really loud. It has a complex tone that sounds about as good as my 1927 Martin tenor, but with modern keywork and very good intonation.

[DetroitDave]

DavyRay, that's a beautiful horn, man. Yours looks exactly like my tenor only your lacquer is in much better shape and mine is not in the original case. I'm curious, does yours say "Made in Italy" (in English) on the bell under the Ida Marie Grassi logo, or does it say "Fabricca Strumenti Musicali Italiani?" My alto has the Italian, but the tenor says "Made in Italy" as if it were built to be an exported horn.

My tenor must be close to yours in age, too; serial 12xxx, and the alto is just older than yours at 8xxx (that is, if the alto and tenor serial numbers correlate to the same years -- who knows?). But the octave key and thumbrest setups are the same for sure. The one on the alto is cracked and needs to be replace anyway. I will try your ideas for that and maybe add some surface area to it while I'm at it.

I saw my tech today and asked how hard it would be to braze a crescent shaped extension onto the octave key so it would hang a little over the right side of the thumbrest button. He said no problem. I think it would help with the comfort a bit, make it a wee bit more ergonomic, and maybe a little quicker, too. I kind of hate to muck around with the original keywork, though. I should probably just suck it up and get used to it. Problem is, when I go back to the Mark VI it feels like, "Ahhhh, THIS is how that's supposed to be." It's really something that only affects me after playing for a couple hours straight.

[DavyRay]

The lacquer on mine is not as good as it looks in the photos. Most is good, but there are spots where corrosion is showing through. Mine says "Made in Italy" in tiny letters near the thumb hook. The case 'looks' Italian, with black brocade fabric on the outside.

I've started looking at all Italian appearing saxophones on eBay, guessing which factory they came out of.

[J.Max]

As I posted in another thread, Gretsch imported these into the US in the 60s, which may also account for the difference in language. I'm not sure how long they imported them...UMI didn't import the 2000s until at least the late 1980s-early 1990s.