Why aren't Rampone horns more popular?

[magical pig]

I mean, it seems to me the Rampone is designed around the idea of a vintage Conn with modern keywork. Who wouldn't like that!!!!! And the fact that it's hand made by a small business is so appealing... to me at least.
(It beats the global market logic behind the Taiwanese business and I rather pay big bucks for this kind of horn, even if there wasn't much difference in terms of sound or ergonomics. But that's another subject and everyone is free to support or not the ideas behind global market.)

I mean, look at those pictures : the one on the left is the Rampone and its 24K gold plate, so dark and classy and the one on the left is a custom Référence 54 Limited Edition Polished brass rose-gold lacquered tenor saxophone. Look at the size of the bell on the Rampone compared to the Selmer....

How can you not love the idea of owning a Rampone???
Do you think the price tag is one of the reasons, as is the fact that it's not as popular a brand as Selmer and the fact that basically it's hard to find one to play-test?

Victor

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o8/theonlymagicalpig/R1JT1AuAu.jpghttp://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o8/theonlymagicalpig/ref54let1.jpg

[Brian]

The color is pretty irrelevant, to me. Gold plating is definitely a huge plus. On the other hand, the play testing availability is almost absent. That is a HUGE big deal!

[sycc]

SaxForte is the main dealer in the USA. They carry the entire line. Tenor madness also has a few select Rampones. SaxForte does not allow for returns/exchanges except on very specail circumstances. That being said I have bought several brancher L chamber mouthpieces and a Rampone Sopranino from SaxForte. I am very pleased w/ Saxforte's quality products!!!! It took a leap of faith to purchase my Rampone sopranino from Saxfote sight unseen. The owner of SaxForte Mathew Aaron is very knowledgeable and honest. The sopranino was everything he said it would be!!!! So were the mouthpieces.

[magical pig]

The color is pretty irrelevant, to me. Gold plating is definitely a huge plus. On the other hand, the play testing availability is almost absent. That is a HUGE big deal!
Well the color is like the icing on the cake. I for one cannot stand shiny objects in general and the fake vintage finish is the most horrible finish an instrument can have IMO. But that's not why the Rampone got my attention.
Hey, why do you care about gold-plating? Just curious...

Victor.

[sycc]

My R1 sopranino has Vintage gold plate. It kinda fits the sax. Sopraninos were big in the sax craze of the 20s.

[kjetil_bari]

Yes, it is really beautiful. Next time you're going back to France, you could stop by www.saxophones.co.uk and have a test run...

[sycc]

Want one and want to save???Here's a Tenor:http://www.usahorn.com/instView.usa?id=821&inst=Rampone+%26+Cazzani+R1+Jazz+Tenor+Sax+Gold+Pl ate

[Budget Explosion]

I've never tried a Rampone, but I love the current Borgani horns. Unfortunately, the price on those new Borganis at Roberto's is unpalatable.

[baga]

hey that's interesting.

bell is different.
key work is different.
neck angles are different.

would be interesting to play on both of those creatures.

[magical pig]

kjetil_bari, I'm not likely to go back to France any time soon unfortunately. But when I do it'll definitely be a good idea to check out this shop and there ridiculous selection of saxes...

sycc, my pockets are so empty that I barely have money to buy reeds at the moment but nonetheless my desire for a new horn is still consuming me.

I posted THIS (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=17406196) in another topic but check it out if you haven't. It is a small tour of Rampone's workshop and Emanuele Cici play testing one of their tenors.

Victor.

[Brian]

Well the color is like the icing on the cake. I for one cannot stand shiny objects in general and the fake vintage finish is the most horrible finish an instrument can have IMO. But that's not why the Rampone got my attention.
Hey, why do you care about gold-plating? Just curious...

Victor.
LOL.... are you trying to stir the whole plating / lacquer debate again here? I won't go there .... I won't got there .....

Lets just leave it at ... Durability.

[sycc]

I'll go there!!!!Allgedly gold and silver plated saxes play with a bit more power. They are also brighter sounding due to the abscence of laquer damping the sound. Of course Yanagisawa,I believe,laquers over the silver plate on their silver plated saxes.

[sycc]

nice Rampone video!!!!!!!!

[magical pig]

Yep, I watched this video a few times now...

Brian, I asked about the gold plate just to see if it was about sound or something else. And no I don't want start the debate again, please, no... Everyone's knowledge and perception is different and I say use what works for you no matter others say... Damn, if I want to buy a 5000$ horn rather than a 1000$ Taiwanese knock-off that's supposed to be an unbelievable horn, I will... And if I happen to feel finish makes a different, that will become the truth for me whatever scientific proof you wave in front of me.

Syyc, so basically when it says "gold-plated" should I understand gold-plated AND unlacquered?

Anyway, back on my leaky Martin :crybaby:

Victor.

[selmer]

Italian build quality.

[hgiles]

My tech said he was not fond of their build quality either. I guess the big issue is that they're not in enough wide circulation to have found support. Kind of like B&S horns. And B&S horns are really great horns. Rampone? Never tried one. :-)

I am at a point now where an instrument is a tool, not a spouse. I desire the one that gets the job done with as little fuss and muss (expense, maintenance, worry) as possible.

[whaler]

Italian build quality.

I guess you've owned an Alfa also? Pretty, but don't hold up too well over the long haul.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I've tried the latest crop of R & C and Borgani horns and was very favorably impressed. Very American sounding with a twist all their own.

My guess is that the lack of name brand appeal among the uninitiated majority, coupled with the fairly high price tag and relative rarity in the States explains their less than stellar selling stats here.

[Brian]

Brian, I asked about the gold plate just to see if it was about sound or something else. And no I don't want start the debate again, please, no... Everyone's knowledge and perception is different and I say use what works for you no matter others say... Damn, if I want to buy a 5000$ horn rather than a 1000$ Taiwanese knock-off that's supposed to be an unbelievable horn, I will... And if I happen to feel finish makes a different, that will become the truth for me whatever scientific proof you wave in front of me.
Victor.

Exactly. I have believed in (and still do) the sonic supremacy of plating over lacquer. Even with that though, I now play horns both alto and tenor, that are lacquer horns because they are not offered in Plating (reference horns) ... yet. Its an observation ... not an obsession .... and certainly not THE controlling influence in horn selection. My reference horns are in my possession simply because they are the best horns I have ever tested.

just think of what they would be if plated ......:D

[brasscane]

Italian build quality.
I assume this is tongue-in-cheek.

What's not to like about Italian build quality? Hadrian's wall (to stay up north), the Sistine Chapel, Brunelleschi's dome, half the antiquities on the planet...jumping a bit ahead...Olmo bicycles outfitted Campanolo gear, Ducatis, half the street cars in the western world (forget the brand), REAL cars that nobody can afford but unlike anything built in the rest of the world, Boeing or Airbus...sorry but there are Italian parts in both so maybe better not fly or board a Tupolev. Then there's the women. I have had two Italian girlfriends (not at the same time thank God) and can attest to that there was nothing wrong with their built quality other than perhaps the part of the brain that controls mood and temper, although it tended to to be ameliorated with new shoes and ice cream. Then there's Italian furniture, clothing, food, wine, coffee, all manufactured with Italian engineering. Finally, Rampone makes great horns, and they are handmade. Sadly haven't had the opportunity to try a Borgani.

[SAXISMYAXE]

The three European countries with the best reputation in design and engineering in practical mechanics of the 20th and 21st century are Germany, Great Britain, and Italy IMO. Some areas more than others for each respective nation albeit.

[magical pig]

Well, obviously Selmer will have to elaborate on his statement if he wants us to take it seriously...:twisted:

I read that before the business was taken over by one of the members of the family again they manufactured poor quality stencils. Maybe that's why people are nervous about the build quality. But that would be stupid. Like comparing modern Conns to vintage ones but the other way round...

Victor.

[Russ]

I've played one of these and it was a fine horn. For me, the only drawbacks are the name = relatively unknown, the bell & bow section are soldered on ie not immediately removable like others. OK, not a biggie but it can be a messy & much more costly repair job if your horn takes a whack. Something to think about, especially with my bank balance.

[SAXISMYAXE]

the bell & bow section are soldered on ie not immediately removable like others.
That's a positive thing in my book. I know the techs like the removable bells for convenience, but they get knocked out of place too easily and I vastly prefer a soldered bow/bell.

I'm of the opinion that the soldered joint promotes greater resonance as well.

[magical pig]

There is a thread somewhere with someone who had his tech perform this kind of mod (soldering the joint of a removable bell) on a Selmer Ref horn I think. I didn't watch the thread very closely but from what I remember it certainly improved the response and sound of the horn.

Victor.

[sycc]

Magical Pig usually gold plate is not lacquered as gold plate minimally tarnishes. Silver on the other hand will tarnish readily. The lacquer protects the silver from the air. Rampone does not lacquer it's silver plate. 3m strips are recommended for Rampone Silver plated saxes to keep tarnish to a minimum. My tech has soldered my Selmer USA Omegas(alto and Tenor) body/bow/bell joints. He hates the neoprene seal that is used in place of solder in facilitate removable bell/bow.

[playitfunky]

The three European countries with the best reputation in design and engineering in practical mechanics of the 20th and 21st century are Germany, Great Britain, and Italy IMO. Some areas more than others for each respective nation albeit.

Don't tell the Dutch that. They will show up and build a giant seawall in your backyard.

[Mal 2]

Don't tell the Dutch that. They will show up and build a giant seawall in your backyard.

Agreed. For the Germans, Brits, and Italians, engineering is a matter of pride. For the Dutch, it's a matter of survival.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I won't deny the Netherlands their accomplishments in holding back the seas. Never the less, in the bigger picture, dams and dikes alone do not a long tradition of across the board of national engineering feats and standards make, especially as it relates to Musical Instruments. I stand by my top three.

One area that is often used to gage a nation's level of engineering prowess (sans any political commentary, please) is within the military industry and related fields. All three nations have a long standing reputation for developing, engineering and building superlative examples in those arenas, as well as general transportation, tools, small arms and machinery, manufacturing and robotics, aerospace etc.

[magical pig]

One area that is often used to gage a nation's level of engineering prowess (sans any political commentary, please) is within the military industry and related fields. All three nations have a long standing reputation for developing, engineering and building superlative examples in those arenas, as well as general transportation, tools, small arms and machinery, manufacturing and robotics, aerospace etc.Well, France has to be at least in the top 5 list. I guess Japan also.

Victor.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Well, France has to be at least in the top 5 list. I guess Japan also.

Victor.
Hi Victor,
We were discussing Europe, so Japan is out in this comparison. And France, well at least in the realm of most of the 20th century's Auto, Military Hardware and Weaponry, Aviation etc. uh, no.8-)

As far as Musical Instruments, France CERTAINLY rates among the top 3 however, and over centuries of excellence at that.

Sorry I contributed to derailing this thread. It seems inevitable lately, huh.

[magical pig]

Magical Pig usually gold plate is not lacquered as gold plate minimally tarnishes.Not unlike gold-plated jewelry then...
My tech has soldered my Selmer USA Omegas(alto and Tenor) body/bow/bell joints. He hates the neoprene seal that is used in place of solder in facilitate removable bell/bow.Did you notice any difference with the horn after the mod? Sound, response?

Selmer produced a horn with a removable bell (BA Remova Bell?) in the past and it leaked like crazy and as a consequence they decided to come back to the soldered bell design. I guess techniques to seal the joint of removable parts of the sax have improved nonetheless, I wonder if I'd want another possible leak factor on an instrument with so many opportunities for a leak.

But we're deviating from the initial subject. Who wants to spend 5000$ on a Rampone tenor and post a review??:twisted:

Victor.

[magical pig]

Hi Victor,
We were discussing Europe, so Japan is out in this comparison. And France, well at least in the realm of most of the 20th century's Auto, Military Hardware and Weaponry, Aviation etc. uh, no.8-)

As far as Musical Instruments, France CERTAINLY rates among the top 3 however, and over centuries of excellence at that.
Hi Mike :D
Hey, what about the Concorde, TGV, Airbus, and endless military aircrafts and other deadly equipment France has been and still is manufacturing. What about the Tour Eiffel and the Statue Of Liberty? LOL

Victor.

[magical pig]

And don't forget the Citroen 2CV... :D

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o8/theonlymagicalpig/citroen_2cv_ente_stuck_mud_wet_gras.jpg

[SAXISMYAXE]

Hi Mike :D
Hey, what about the Concorde, TGV, Airbus, and endless military aircrafts and other deadly equipment France has been and still is manufacturing. What about the Tour Eiffel and the Statue Of Liberty? LOL

Victor.

I italicized MOST of the 20th century for a reason. The better part of it (before, during and after the two world wars), saw France decidedly behind in the technology race. Recent successes in the Military and Civilian Aviation, Heavy Armor and Light Skinned Vehicles (such as they are) are largely a product of joint ventures with Germany and the U.K. (albeit many of these projects were tenuous, with many cancellations along the way), and a good percentage cannot rightly be considered solely French feats. The SEPECAT Jaguar, Leopard 2,The French Leclerc Main Battle Tank, and Concord Jet are a few examples of this.


Their present Auto and small arms (M.A.S.) designs are still, ahem, iffy at best.

The Eiffel tower and Statue of Liberty are the products of the 19th Century.

I am not unfairly beating up on France here, just stating fact within an historical context.

In the 16th through the 19th centuries in particular, France was top dog in the Military, Engineering, Arts and Architectural fields among others.

Just about every nation gets a chance at bat historically.

[magical pig]

You're probably right and anyways, I was just jerking around. I don't really care about which country is the best. :) This sort of obsession leads to fanaticism anyway.
Moreover, I don't think you can really assimilate a country's overall technological and engineering level of expertise to a small business savoir-faire. What I mean is Italy being or not one of the countries with the best reputation of the 20/21th century doesn't necessarily mean Rampone horns are well built or not as a consequence.
Though Selmer has and still manufactures great instruments and I'm French, I guess if I try and build a saxophone there's a great chance it will be a useless piece of brass in the end.

Victor.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I'm French.
With a name like Victor from Thibodaux, LA, I gathered that. :D
I have French in my background too, from my Norman Scottish and Alsatian German branches, so I mean no slight to our Gallic cousins.

I'm an ardent student of History, particularly Military (my work as an illustrator is largely in the realm of Military publications as well), so I am a bit prone to histrionics about History, pun intended.;)

Viva La France!!!

P.S.,
If the original author so specifies, I will move all this crap to another, seperate thread. Again, I apologize.

[magical pig]

With a name like Victor from Thibodaux, LA, I gathered that. :DYou're telling me I can't hide my French origins, damn...

If the original author so specifies, I will move all this crap to another, separate thread. Again, I apologize.No problem. It seems that not so many people have tried Rampones anyways so this thread is condemned to a slow but certain death. Maybe it'll get resurrected in a few months by someone who buys one of them horns.

Victor.

[KennyD]

I guess you've owned an Alfa also? Pretty, but don't hold up too well over the long haul.

Ah, Alfa Romeo - the only car manufacturer in the world holding the ignomy of making the only fully water-soluble car in the world! ;)

Love Italian crystal though...

[playitfunky]

I won't deny the Netherlands their accomplishments in holding back the seas. Never the less, in the bigger picture, dams and dikes alone do not a long tradition of across the board of national engineering feats and standards make, especially as it relates to Musical Instruments. I stand by my top three.

One area that is often used to gage a nation's level of engineering prowess (sans any political commentary, please) is within the military industry and related fields. All three nations have a long standing reputation for developing, engineering and building superlative examples in those arenas, as well as general transportation, tools, small arms and machinery, manufacturing and robotics, aerospace etc.

Aren't the dutch the ones who are building those islands in Dubai?

[BarrySachs]

The French made these for over 20 years! Many are still on the road.

http://danilogurovich.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/1970dsupload.jpg



And what about this stuff....http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.grandsbordeaux.com/public/GrandsCrus_1_m.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.grandsbordeaux.com/category/Grands-crus-de-Medoc&h=320&w=448&sz=23&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=Fytj80gLly2q_M:&tbnh=91&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchateau%2Blatour%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6safe%3Doff%26sa%3DX

[magical pig]

http://danilogurovich.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/1970dsupload.jpg

This is a fantastic car BarrySachs!!! I wouldn't say "many" are still on the road but some car enthusiasts try and revive the model so you can see some of them on the road.

Victor.

[wyliecoyote]

Ok...back to the original subject??anyone??

Italian horns in general..and early R&C's...were of poor quality..and have a reputation for intonation issues...there is still some prejudice out there..

The R&C's do have some slight intonation issues...for one thing, they are saxophones:)...one problem is that they tend to play a bit flat where other horns tend to be sharp..compared to a Mrk VI for example...be prepared to work closely with these horns and tech em...it will be worth it...IF IT's what you want in sound quality...

Selmer BA's, SBA's, Mrk VI's/ Reference horns deserve their reputation (well, the good Mrk VI's etc.)

I own and play both a Rampone R1J baritone and R1j tenor....

They are not having build quality issues...as far as quality of materials...at all...I do have them checked and looked at...I've replaced some of the original natural cork with tech cork..I do think that R&C/or Saxforte should do a better service to themselves and their horns and set them up better...especially the bari...the tenor was near right on...

The bari is the gold plate...it has a great fat big band sound...the Brancher mpc that Saxforte sells is a good addition...I had mine modified by John Reilly...the bari plays a hell of a lot better..once a good tech has gone over it...no big modifications...just to be sure everything is sealing well and is correctly regulated....

the tenor is the silver plate with gold plate keys..extensive engraving etc...a work of handmade art....you wouldn't believe the visual rush when you first open that beautiful rampone case...and see this damn horn...excuse me...but nothing Selmer makes or anybody else takes my breath away like this horn...so many horns today are just showboat ugly...The Rampone gold/silver tenor is nothing short of outstanding class....Saxforte's pictures of this horn are beautiful..but hardly do it justice...and I'm not kidding.

The R&C tenor has quite a different sound then the Selmer...I've played both...The R&C has a decidely fatter sound then the Selmer lineup...vintage big band..IMO..given the lungs and the correct mouthpiece...well, the R&C just fat *** blows away any modern tenor I've played including those beautiful Selmer Reference horns...the size of the bow and bell provides for as much space as you can fill...as I've written in an earlier post...early Dexter Gordon vs. Coltrane...the only tenor I've played that comes in there above in comparison was a great silver plated Selmer Balanced Action...

If you play rock, classical, coltrane...buy a Reference 54 or 36 (my favorite)

If you want a fatter sound...especially big band...buy an R&C...

Or..buy both!:D

[magical pig]

Wyliecoyote, thanks for pulling this thread back to topic.
But is your horn as beautiful as that car?;)

Victor.

[wyliecoyote]

What car?:) I wasn't looking at any car?:? My R&C tenor does fit nicely alongside the very beautiful (french?) woman standing alongside the driverside of the otherwise ugly/inept piece of french (or is that Italian) engineering/manufacturing. I think they should be introduced;) (pretty please?) I went out with a young lady of french heritage long long ago @ UC Santa Cruz, CA...ooh la la...I was, in retrospect, over my head on that one....:)

Completely off topic: there was some kind of poll done a few years back on which women were the most loyal in relationships...French women were at the top..or near the top if I remember...Russian were near the bottom...of course this doesn't say much about an individual...:!:

Yani 991 could be on my short list for a bari...thinking that the 992 in bronze wouldn't be bright enough....

[brasscane]

What car?:) I wasn't looking at any car?:? My R&C tenor does fit nicely alongside the very beautiful (french?) woman standing alongside the driverside of the otherwise ugly/inept piece of french engineering/manufacturing. I think they should be introduced;) (pretty please?) I went out with a young lady of french heritage long long ago @ UC Santa Cruz, CA...ooh la la...I was, in retrospect, over my head on that one....:)
You may be right on with the Rampone but you are so off when it comes to the 2CV. Those things were awesome in their time. I used to drive my Mom's, which by then already was vintage. Everything on the car was manual and could be repaired. You had to switch blinkers both on and of. The windows flipped up/out sideways and had to be taken down when closing them. You could roll back the top and attach it with straps and have a convertible that couldn't brake the speed limit while you got the feeling of driving really fast. My Mom's even had a custom switch installed somewhere that you had to flip before the ignition worked. A real simple theft prevention measure. Obviously, such qualities are lost on males stateside but they weren't wasted on the girls/young women where I grew up. They loved the 2CV.

[wyliecoyote]

You may be right on with the Rampone but you are so off when it comes to the 2CV. Those things were awesome in their time. I used to drive my Mom's, which by then already was vintage. Everything on the car was manual and could be repaired. You had to switch blinkers both on and of. The windows flipped up/out sideways and had to be taken down when closing them. You could roll back the top and attach it with straps and have a convertible that couldn't brake the speed limit while you got the feeling of driving really fast. My Mom's even had a custom switch installed somewhere that you had to flip before the ignition worked. A real simple theft prevention measure. Obviously, such qualities are lost on males stateside but they weren't wasted on the girls/young women where I grew up. They loved the 2CV.


:D LOL Ok...I admit...I've messed up...I do understand the fun...what first came to what's left of my mind per the 2CV..is the movie "Endless Summer II"...with a surfboard stuck out thru the "vintage moonroof"....the occupants nearly run over by the higher octane following vehicles on the highway....but yes, quirks can be fun...as long as they don't get you killed.:(

My dad...being an auto electrician ..had the very same antitheft switch on all his vehicles...and being an ex Petrolane propane gas manager..ran his vehicles on LP (it was cheaper back then)...and burned clean too.

Back on track..I'd be the last person to say that Rampone horns are the only thing to buy...but they are worth serious consideration IMO...the tenor is especially gutsy...per the opening of this post...all you vintage horn players who want it all...vintage sound with modern keywork...do not pass up these horns.:!:

[txsphere]

After laying off the sax for quite a while to overcome a neck problem I am spending more time with my R&C R1J tenor. My neck and hands do not bother me with the sax now but I have come to hate the flute as much as the sax.

First I will never own anything other than plated horns. The horn just feels free. Second the Conn and Dexter Gordon references are right on. Big and thick.

The key work may be more playable than older Conn's but nothing special.

The horn is very altissimo friendly which is good because C3 up through the left hand palm keys is sooooooooooo flat I use altissimo fingerings from C3 up. I have had my horn about 3 years so maybe they have improved on the intonation.

As far as why they are not popular it is probably because people have not heard them. The sound is intoxicating. The fact that the main distributor is not very popular with some of his former customers may have something to do with it also.

Ultimately if I had been able to afford a plated 992 Yanagisawa I would have gone that direction.

Over all the horn has a wonderful sound but you need to have a good ear going into it.

Just my two cents.

[cjpts]

You may be right on with the Rampone but you are so off when it comes to the 2CV. Those things were awesome in their time.

You should watch BBC's Top Gear - they put a 2CV behind a Boeing 747 at take of thrust to demonstrate the affects of cross-winds on a slab-sided car. The car was at least 50m behind the engines - and instantly disintegrated !

As for the R&Cs I think they should be immense horns. I'm hoping to get a new alto for my 21st, so I'll be driving the 3hours to saxophones.co.uk's shop to try a lot out. I figure that'd be an awesome day! I also figure that I'm fairly critical about build quality - I'm going off my Yamaha's because of the build quality!

[brasscane]

You should watch BBC's Top Gear - they put a 2CV behind a Boeing 747 at take of thrust to demonstrate the affects of cross-winds on a slab-sided car. The car was at least 50m behind the engines - and instantly disintegrated !
I must admit that we never drove ours behind a 747. We did have one of the (real) Mini Coopers and I can tell you that being inside one while being hit by another car didn't quite give you a sense that they were cut out for an Italian job. The Rampones on the other hand are exactly that and I still fail to see what justifies all the skepticism about Italian build quality.

[charles]

that beautiful french car citroen was designed by the italian designer "bertone"...............

[Canadiain]

And don't forget the Citroen 2CV... :D

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o8/theonlymagicalpig/citroen_2cv_ente_stuck_mud_wet_gras.jpg

Sorry, was there a car in that picture somewhere?


Why are Rampone horns not more popular?

Firstly there are not enough in circulation to have a chance to hear one or borrow one to try in order to form an opinion about how they sound and play.

Secondly they are not cheap enough on the used market to take a chance on buying one unseen unlike my handmade german B&S twins.

Thirdly, The italians have never quite ruled the roost with quality brass or woodwind, unlike the germans and french who can reel of a string of well regarded makers ith very few duds among them, Selmer, SML, B&S, Keilwerth, Kohler etc... There is that nagging doubt that for every fantastic Ferrari or Lamborghini out there, there are thousands of Fiat Regattas and AlfaSuds, so perhaps there is still some small psychological hurdle to get over regarding quality.

Mainly though its price isnt it? For the serious money involved, in order to deviate from the well beaten path to Selmers door, you have to be selling either a better instrument, or one that panders to a niche the usual suspects have not covered. Selmer still demonstrably rules the high end middle of the road market, so that really just leaves them a niche to fill unless they can make a Selmer slayer that will grab the markets attention....and then they need to be able to get it out there for the people to try to convince them its worth the money, which they dont seem to have been able to do.

[magical pig]

His name's Bertoni. But he just "re-designed" the car. It's true though that the car as we know it is the result of his reshaping. Original creator is M. Boulanger...

All the info can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV).

Victor.

[charles]

i was referring about the citroen ds, a very innovative car in the past. it have powersteering, disc brake and very low drag in terms of aerodynamics in a 1950's car..

[pc1234]

So I had the pleasure of trying out several horns at Sam Ash NYC over the weekend, including the R&C R1 Jazz Tenor that used to belong to James Carter. I compared it with a Ref. 36, a P. Mauriat 66R, and a Keilwerth SX-90.

The Rampone felt the largest in my hands - the keywork felt even more spread than the Keilwerth, which surprised me. In fact, the Keilwerth felt very smooth and quick in comparison (although I've been playing a Keilwerth bari for a couple months now, so maybe I've become used to the Keilwerth ergos.) Of all 4 horns, the Rampone was the most dissimilar in terms of "feel" - whereas I could switch out the others and play fast runs without a hitch, I would trip up on the Rampone because of its more "spread" keywork. I'm not saying one can't get used to this, to be sure, because as said above, I've been getting used to my Keilwerth bari (which certainly feels different from my old Martin - which I still miss a little...). But if I were choosing solely based on feel, the Rampone came in last.

As far as intonation goes, the Rampone was the most fussy in the palm keys - a bit flat up there, similar to my Martin HC Comm II before I figured out what mouthpiece to use . But with a little "lip" it worked out.

Sound: This is where the Rampone can shine. Big, fat sound. Projects really nicely. However, there were a couple mechanical things going on with the horn - I suspected a leaky bis key (I got some "motorboating" playing a middle A) and a moderately sticky G# - that interfered a little with the overall responsiveness of the horn. When I put these things aside and focused on the sound (pressing a little harder on the "A"), however, I was impressed.

That said, the next horn I played was the Mauriat. The sales guy handed it to me with a look that said "Just wait." And he was right. It had a similarly great sound but much more comfortable keywork - it also played effortlessly throughout the range and was very responsive, but not overly free-blowing. Nice, rich vintage tone. And mechanically it felt tight as a drum. It came in second to the Ref. 36 I tried, but really not by much, which was scary. I liked it more than the Keilwerth, even, which sounded almost a little generic in comparison.

Granted, the Rampone was a used instrument (and by someone who doesn't just stand and play(!)), but if I had to rank the 4 I tried, it would be:

1. Selmer Ref. 36 - Rich sound and palette, very, very nice ergos.
2. P. Mauriat 66R - Surprisingly rich sound, very good ergos. And I'm not even taking cost into consideration.
3. Keilwerth SX-90R - Very speedy and smooth keywork (for me) - very fat sound, and loud, but not quite as rich tonally as the Ref. or the Mauriat. Sounded a bit more "modern," if that means anything.
4. Rampone R1 Jazz - Nice, rich tone, but overall (if I were buying) I wouldn't take a flyer on this specific horn over the 3 others I tried. The used Rampone was priced over the Mauriat and was priced at the same level as the Keilwerth. For the money, I would have chosen the Mauriat in a heartbeat. But the Ref. 36 was still the overall winner.

I was playing a Kessler OL7Pro mouthpiece and Vandoren V16 reed (2.5) throughout. For comparison purposes, I played the same tunes on each horn (Koko, Ballade and Donna Lee out of the old Omnibook), along with some slower ones, to try to hone in on feel and sound for each.

[wyliecoyote]

Well..just shows you...subjective opinions :?:!::? IMHO...and you better try before putting your money down...so fly to Saxforte first...
Prior to purchasing my R1Jazz in silverplate...I tried out a Keilwerth tenor at Scimonetti's..hated it..the ergo's felt "clunky"... not comfortable with cupped in pearls....
Tried a P. Mauriat...copper?bronze custom alto...along with my band leader (30 year pro playing baritone Las Vegas/Reno casino's) ---major intonation issues...his conclusion was; it should have never left the factory :):) but it was probably just us...somebody else probably came by...said "great sax to themselves" and bought the thing on the spot :D
Loved the Selmer 36 and 54's...and III's I played there...I'd buy a 36 in a heart beat..and probably will in the near future...just for the Selmer sound..compared to the R&C

Note Capt'n Beefat's post...on the UK pro's trial..in comparison...(lol -:D)

I have no problems playing with the stock ergo's of the Rampone tenor..except for the forked F key..which should have more of a slope allowing one to slide your forefinger over instead of lifting and repositioning...i've fixed that issue with some dental epoxy...but then, I play a Rampone bari..which is a larger bore then the Keilwerth bari. As far as the palm key "flatness"...you learn (as Matthew at Saxforte will tell you) to push the mpc almost to the end of the cork and relax..unlearn old habits...if your used to playing a horn that is sharp up there..as many horns are...then your going to have change your muscle memory...top and bottom:)

And this is where it gets problematic, I think...

1) Lots of variables ... reed, mpc...intonation issues...some reeds are more wacked out than others...and if the mpc maker is compensating for a more typical tendency of a horn playing sharp in the upper notes...then this will add to the issues....Ultimately..every sax I've played has some issues..and some notes are very embrochure dependent compared to others..and people over time get used to a particular horn...there are people out there playing pro in tune on great sounding horns that other people would throw down in disgust ...and of course, majority rules..."it's ok for a Selmer Mrk VI to play sharp on the palm keys cuz other people in the section are going to be playing sharp up there also on there Mrk VI's"/
2) I've tried the R&C tenor with J.Jazz, Otto Link 5 star (john reilly modified), brancher l29...and a john reilly modified stock rampone...My choice at the end?...the oem R&C large chamber mpc:shock although john did adjust the rails and tip a bit, but not the baffle :...even though john was a bit negative on the mpc material (it's actually made of Delrin, which is a better material than hard rubber, he just wasn't sure what it was)...it gives the fattest warmest sound..and the best control, intonation wise...the jody jazz was far more problematic this way, and "tinny" sounding...the otto link was fine intonation wise..but a bit to bright for my taste..the brancher L29 sounds relatively confined, narrow....
3) The R&C tenor I have is silver plated, gold pl keys, engraving...this was not high priced compared to a quality silver plated Selmer...and many cheaper taiwan horns use flash plating (cannonball) which is going to be gone in a relative heart beat, compared to R&C horns...ditto with the gold plated horns...try the pricing on a Selmer horn in gold plate...the R&C is a particular tenor with a sound you gotta love...it was worth it to me...this is not to say there aren't other horns on my list. The R&C is worthy of addition to any sax addicts library of sounds ....

[Captain Beeflat]

With regard to the ergonomics; it is worthwhile remembering that human hands are not of a standard size; neither are fingers the same length.
Car seats have adjustments for rake, height & distance from the pedals...steering wheels have up & down and fore & aft adjustments.
Saxophones have no such adjustments...it follows therefore that the perfect ergonomics for one pair of hands feels awkward for another.
I was aware initially of the wide right hand spacing of my R1 R&C tenor...now it feels so right & anything else feels cramped.
In my view, it is worth persisting, just for that SOUND.
My non musical wife, from upstairs, can recognise the sound of the R&C from my other saxophones, using the same RPC & Plasticover, & asks why I bother to play anything else.

[Pete Thomas]

When I was trying Francois Louis ligatures at the Frankfurt Musikmesse, their test horn was an R & C. I played it for several minutes without knowing what it was - a very nice horn. I then tried quite a few at the R & C stand and was extremely impressed, enough to buy one.

The baritone was not for me. It was a very classical sound, great but not what I want. The alto however was beautiful.

One reason they may not be so popular of course is the price. I imagine for a small company to get its name more widely in the mind of players, now is a very tough time as there are so many extremely high quality Asian instruments appearing at very low prices.

[Captain Beeflat]

Pete.
You did not say, but can we assume that the horn you bought was the alto?
Did you try the the R&C tenor? If so, what are your impressions please?

[Pete Thomas]

Hehe, I said I liked it enough to buy one. I didn't actually buy one. But I intend to visit the factory and try a few. Yes it was the alto that really grabbed me, and I had a very nice chat with Claudio who does the engraving. He was very keen to hear my honest opinions which was refreshing: I told him what I liked and didn't like and he seemed genuinely interested.

[Captain Beeflat]

Yes, Claudio is a super chap...who listens.
Following your visit to the factory, perhaps you will be kind enough to post your impressions of the various horns....tenor included!

[Pete Thomas]

Definitely, I'll also hope to try more baritones, see if there is a funkier one around. That one was lovely but just a bit polite for me.

[Captain Beeflat]

I look forward to your review.....please do not overlook the tenor. :)

[wyliecoyote]

Definitely, I'll also hope to try more baritones, see if there is a funkier one around. That one was lovely but just a bit polite for me.

Pete...

Since I play an R1J bari in gold plate...I'm curious...was this bari you've played a R1J..R1..Gold..Silver? I'm wondering if the R1 in silver plate would have a more focused sound...
The R1J in gold has such a big fat broad sound I'd say it is the wrong horn to play funk...it's great in a traditional 20 piece jazz band though, which is what I use it for. I think it would be fine for classical as well. I use a Brancher L29 with a custom baffle by a well known MPC Doc..which revved the mpc up a bit...power wise without making it to edgy or thin for my use.

I love my tenor as well :)...as Beeflat says...just for the sound...just wish Claudio would work on the forked F key *shape*, it needs a smoother ramp so one can slide their forefinger over it without lifting...Mathew at Saxforte recommended I bend the key a bit..but that would be difficult since it is L shape at the bottom...and intonation....I use the rt hand 1 key (E3) when I play F3...either with the forked F or LH palm keys to bring up the pitch...which is not a big deal, and shows that it isn't that far off...only all the Selmers I play with are quite sharp up there;)....but everything else with the R&C is perfect!
Maybe they'll listen to you, however. Love the neck...hydroformed...but it takes time to warm up. I would like an underslung version of the same quality R&C build, but similar to the Cannonball "fat neck" design...simple, better air flow, and sturdier than their more traditional design.

[Captain Beeflat]

wylicoyote

I have always used the side (E3) key to play high F with the LH side keys...I thought that this was the way to do it & the method that I was taught all those years ago...simply a progression from high E.
Now I am worried, because it has always worked for me on all horns.

[wyliecoyote]

wylicoyote

I have always used the side (E3) key to play high F with the LH side keys...I thought that this was the way to do it & the method that I was taught all those years ago...simply a progression from high E.
Now I am worried, because it has always worked for me on all horns.


wait, don't be worried, what I meant was I have to use it on the forked F as well as the LH palm keys to play a F3 in tune..it is not a standard fingering on the forked F..It is when using the LH palm keys..

[Captain Beeflat]

wylicoyote.

Smile
Thanks for the reassurance. You worried me.
Having learnt on a vintage horn with no aux F I never use it; so that problem never arises.

[wyliecoyote]

;)wylicoyote.

Smile
Thanks for the reassurance. You worried me.
Having learnt on a vintage horn with no aux F I never use it; so that problem never arises.

So...you weren't hitting me over the head with a bit of dry British wit..? :)
So how do you deal with the slight flatness of pitch on those notes?
I take in as much mpc as I can and play with a very relaxed embrochure...so I'll still have the flexibility to lip up those few notes (A problem IMO if you're already playing tight thru the whole scale..you have no place to go:D)

[Captain Beeflat]

wylicoyote.
No dry humour whatsoever intended....simply a panic that perhaps I had been using false fingering for all those years.
I have honestly never been concious of any flatness on the top notes of my tenor; but playing with electrified guitarists who tend to tune sharp in order to cut through, perhaps my flat high F (concert Eb) coincides with their sharpened C#...dry humour alert!

[BlueTrain70]

just got my R&C soprano R1 Jazz... what a beautiful horn... and the sounds is absolutly incredible... never heard such a warm sound from any other sopranos before...

Got it from Saxforte... Strongly recommend !! Mathew is a great guy to deal with... super knowledgable, really spent the time to understand what I was looking for and is actually the one who introduced me to the R&C sax...

I got a beautiful silver hand engraved vintage finish horn... which took few montsh as it was a custom setup... but I am glad I waited ...

so I guess, the reason why these hirns are not that well known is probably because this is a small family owned company with limited distribution, especially in North America... but as some people have said before.. once you have one... you enter a whole new world !!

[wyliecoyote]

The average working pro wants a horn that will get the job done with the minimum of tweaking...no charachter apply...Very few sax players are headlining at Harrah's ( if any). Most are running around their respective areas doing gigs here and there as members of small groups/orchestra's...they're not looking for a stand out sax...as long as it sounds like a sax, it is a sax. They carry this attitude with them as music teachers in private lesson settings..and they believe in big name brands..Yamaha/Selmer..very few are willing to adjust to a different horns sensibilities..quirks.

[MarchingBear]

People like what other people use. That's why people are hired to endorse! Since they aren't well known or widely available in the USA, people go with what they know... It's safer.

I took a leap of faith with a Rampone Curved soprano from Saxforte and am VERY happy with it. And with Matt's service at Saxforte. He always helps me get exactly the stuff I want.
The Rampone has a beautiful but powerful sound. Not shrill in any way. Very even and in tune. I love it.

[wyliecoyote]

Italian build quality.

Har har..reading the above statement again makes me roar LOL...the stories I've heard from retailers about the condition of Selmer saxes when they come in new from Paree, F. ... well, to each his/her own. I admit, I'd love to own a Reference 36...after a complete check up and post factory setup by a good tech...but straight from the factory ? NO!

[heath]

I have a ref 36 and 54 tenor. Also a B/S medusa tenor. What I found interesting about this thread was the mentioning of the right hand spread.

I sold my JK SX90 tenor because the spread of the right hand pearls. I have no idea why anyone would need pearls that spread. If the R/C horns are even more spread for the right hand I don't know how anyone could really get around on them like you could the Ref horns, which have just about perfect ergonomics.

The vibe and concept of the R/C look like a great combo, but if the ergos are off, why fight the horn. I'm 6'2" and have been told I have long fingers, and can stretch out on the piano, but the JK right hand stack drove me up the wall and slowed me down, other than that it was a fine horn. Seems crazy to not reposition the pearls to be more in line with what Selmer and Yani are doing.

[brasscane]

I sold my JK SX90 tenor because the spread of the right hand pearls. I have no idea why anyone would need pearls that spread. If the R/C horns are even more spread for the right hand I don't know how anyone could really get around on them like you could the Ref horns, which have just about perfect ergonomics.
From reading many of your posts, I am sure that I am not remotely at your skill levels. Yet, I don't have a problem with the JK/R&C layout (for comparison, the left pinky table on a 10M doesn't work with my finger joints, which are hypermobile whereas Buechers/Martins are fine). I am wondering whether you simply are so used to Selmer style horns, and obviously possess them in abundance, that making the transition is not worthwhile. No offense intended, just asking. Somehow it would surprise me that a skilled player with normal or large hands who put down the Selmer style horns for good and completely shifted to Keilwerth/R&Cs would have problems after a short transition period. IMHO, the ergonomics on Keilwerth/R&Cs are sufficiently modern that they should nor present themselves as major obstacles.

[heath]

Yeah the upper stack on the JK was fine. I like the big diameter of the pearls on the JK as well. The big problem was the stretch for my index finger on the right hand and the pinky Eb/C key could have been a touch lower. I felt like I was barely able to stay on the F key with my index finger, it sort of hung half way off and didn't feel very secure.

The problem could be fixed by bringing the pearls closer together to close the spread.

Like I mentioned the R/C, to my eyes at least, embodies more vintage features than any horn including the JK, because the neck on the R/C looks very Conn 10Mish where's the JK clearly has a modern higher arched neck. Cool horn the R/C appears to be and I'd pick one up if it had the ergos simular to Selmer. Granted I realize that it's a big bore horn and things are going to feel larger obviously on the right hand.

Another thing aobut the JK is that I play with my Selmers out in front. The JK with it's ergos worked best when the horn was to my side. Seemed to make the right hand stack fit a little better. Of course the horn to my side drives me nuts, I did that in high school and college, I haven't wanted to play like that for well over a decade and then some.

Luckily I bought the Ref horns when you could still get them new or mint for $3K....those days are clearly over.

[wyliecoyote]

Hmm..interesting..I'm 5'9.5" tall..with modest size hands..and have no problems playing an R&C R1J baritone which is so large compared to most that my sax tech had to bend his bari jig for it to fit (first time ever) ..playing my R&C tenor as far as ergos presents no problem either...right hand spacing is not an issue for me, I have a small pinky finger too...as i've said..a slightly better design of the forked F key would be welcome. What I didn't care for in the JK horns I tried..was the cupped pearls. I prefer the R&C tenor slightly over the ref 36/54/III series horns cuz of the big fat sound..personal preference. The 36 is a great horn...I want one eventually.

[irimi]

I've been playing an R&C R1J sop ("saxello" style) for about two years. I think that the sound of the horn and the ergonomics are great and don't doubt that it is adequately built.

That said, I have a JK alto and the brazing/soldering on the JK is FAR better than that on the R&C. There are lots of minute voids noticeable under the strap hook eye, and also under the small support under the curve of the "neck" on the R&C, while the soldering on the JK is far more consistent. That said, with the possible exception of the neck hook eye, the forces on these "joints" is pretty minimal. Even on the neck hook the forces seem pretty inconsequential.

Also, the thickness of the metal in the drawn part of the tone hole seems pretty minimal, but is likely more than adequate. I had an late 20's Martin sop before the R&C and it had soldered and beveled tone holes and those were so thick that the R&C probably justs seems thin.

The R&C sounds great and the ergonomics are fine, even for my very small hands. That said, the issues noted above have caused me to wonder about durability - but not much.

Actually, had the playing position of the Martin (which was straight) not put undo pressure on my right thumb, I'd have never given it up. Probably not as versatile as the R&C, nor as good in ergonomics terms, but it really sounded sweet. But the R&C is close.

Rich

[heath]

Personally and I'll admit I haven't tried every Italian product out there, but when it comes to building something that will stand up to abuse the Germans, Americans, Japan do it better.

Granted my experience is with cycling gear, but the Italian stuff whether it be clothing, shoes, hardware/components or frames just isn't built to stand up to the abuse. Every finely crafted Italian item I've had for cycling, while very stylish and classy has completely fallen apart in nothing flat.

This might not carry over to horns, but it makes me wonder.

[Captain Beeflat]

Personally and I'll admit I haven't tried every Italian product out there, but when it comes to building something that will stand up to abuse the Germans, Americans, Japan do it better.

Granted my experience is with cycling gear, but the Italian stuff whether it be clothing, shoes, hardware/components or frames just isn't built to stand up to the abuse. Every finely crafted Italian item I've had for cycling, while very stylish and classy has completely fallen apart in nothing flat.

This might not carry over to horns, but it makes me wonder.

Surprising, if this is the case, that Ferrari are leading the F1 Championship and Ducati is at the top of MotoGP. There is no tougher test of build quality.
Last time I looked, the Tower of Pisa also was still standing!

[Budget Explosion]

Back in 1995, Jamie Kitman in Automobile magazine did a review of new Ferrari that had been passed around the auto writer pool for a whole year. His verdict, 10,000 miles of wear on a Ferrari is the equivalent of 100,000 miles wear on a normal american/japanese/german car. At 10,000 miles, everything on the car was needing replacement or breaking down.

[Swingtone]

Could it have something to do with their weight? In that old "How much Does Your Tenor Weigh" thread, I seem to recall reading that a guy's R&C tenor weighed in at around 8 1/2 pounds--that's a whole lb. heavier than my old SML Gold Medal, which I always thought was a real "lodestone"!

For comparison, I think a Mark VI and a Conn 10M (tenors) each weigh a little over 7 pounds.

[sycc]

The R&C R1 Jazz baritone ,that I tried at Saxforte,w/ the low A weighed a ton. I ordered a R1 jazz baritone down to low Bb w/o a high F# to save weigh and to weigh the sonic merits low Bb barotines vs lowA baritones.

[pepesax]

Surprising, if this is the case, that Ferrari are leading the F1 Championship and Ducati is at the top of MotoGP. There is no tougher test of build quality.
Last time I looked, the Tower of Pisa also was still standing!

and Berlusconi still standing as well...! :(

sorry, I feel I am an interested party as an Italian and also owner of a Rampone & Cazzani tenor.
Italian cars and motorbikes can be named for design and quality, but they belong to tradition and sport (and spare parts are needed to increase the market), while R&C saxes are part of the works of art like the Tower of Pisa and Mona Lisa... (and emotions given can last forever...)

[milandro]

how could I disagree with that? :)

[Captain Beeflat]

Count me in too.

[heath]

Could it have something to do with their weight? In that old "How much Does Your Tenor Weigh" thread, I seem to recall reading that a guy's R&C tenor weighed in at around 8 1/2 pounds--that's a whole lb. heavier than my old SML Gold Medal, which I always thought was a real "lodestone"!

For comparison, I think a Mark VI and a Conn 10M (tenors) each weigh a little over 7 pounds.

No weight isn't the concern when it comes to this. I would be more concerned with soldering, silver soldering of the key work. Sloppy soldering, gaps/voids in the soldering are a sign of careless craftsmanship. Not saying this is the case on the R/C horns. Just that it's one of the places I start when I look a horn over to see how it will stand up.

You don't need a heavy tank to have it hold up. Some horns go overboard with the extra ribbing adding unnecessary weight. Of course I like my key work to be built tough, especially where it connects to the hinge tubing.

[milandro]

Rampone believes in a certain sturdiness of the materials, along with having an original wide bore design....

[Captain Beeflat]

No weight isn't the concern when it comes to this. I Some horns go overboard with the extra ribbing adding unnecessary weight. Of course I like my key work to be built tough, especially where it connects to the hinge tubing.

My R&C tenor is beautifully built. It is indeed heavy despite being un-ribbed.
They certainly know how to make horns...they have been making them almost as long as America ceased to be a colony.

[brasscane]

Sloppy soldering, gaps/voids in the soldering are a sign of careless craftsmanship.
I have had two out of two newer (~65X,XXX) Selmer altos with exactly such flaws, first a Series III and next a Series II. Since I didn't care too much for their sound (particularly the Series III) I sold them at a significant loss and would newer buy a new Selmer off the web again without being able to return it. In contrast, the Series III tenor I have listed sale is remarkably well made but before I play-tested the horn, I meticulously checked the solders. That shouldn't be necessary. I understand that gaps/voids in the soldering are more likely to occur on the smaller saxes but the price of new Selmer horns ought to be sufficient to offset the costs of proper quality control. If Selmer sets the industry standard, Rampone saxes would have to be downright awful in their manufacturing to merit the suspicions raised in several posts in this thread. My Rampone soprano, while not perfect, appears to be well built and I love the sound of the horn.

[sycc]

Rampones fit and finish could be improved. They are hand made and if you examine one closely you'll know what I mean but they play up a storm!!!!

[heath]

For me over all the clean solder joints were better on the older selmers, they must have taken more time to do it right.

It does seem the feet on the Eb/C/B/Bb guards can and do come lose on the Selmers. A good tech can fix those with hardly a blemish.

Over all though the solder work could be improved on just about every horn I've seen. Lots of manufactures will let little things slide to get a horn out the door. A lot of this stuff you will only notice when you take the horn apart. All it takes is one sloppy worker that isn't being pulled to the side or fired by the supervisor to spoil a whole batch of horns.

What we need are builders so dedicated that if they make even the slightest mistake the horn is thrown in the scrap pile. Not going to happen though.

[sycc]

Don't make me worry Heath!!!! I ordered a low Bb baritone from R&C. For what it costs it better be done right!!!! Although w/ Rampone I'm sure it will be. My nino and alto are great!!!

[milandro]

I honestly don't think that there's any doubt that although the R&C are definitely handmade horns , that they are well built and very sturdy indeed.

[brasscane]

It does seem the feet on the Eb/C/B/Bb guards can and do come lose on the Selmers. A good tech can fix those with hardly a blemish.
That's small stuff. I was referring to gaps underneath entire ribs, and posts with ~50% of the surface area attached.

[milandro]

none of which I've ever seen on a Rampone! :)

[wyliecoyote]

Personally and I'll admit I haven't tried every Italian product out there, but when it comes to building something that will stand up to abuse the Germans, Americans, Japan do it better.

Granted my experience is with cycling gear, but the Italian stuff whether it be clothing, shoes, hardware/components or frames just isn't built to stand up to the abuse. Every finely crafted Italian item I've had for cycling, while very stylish and classy has completely fallen apart in nothing flat
This might not carry over to horns, but it makes me wonder.

You have to be kidding! And I mean kidding! I raced USCF for twenty years..Cat II, achieved several placings in state road race finals, never got to compete in the olympic trials only cuz I didn't have the $$$ to do so..starving student etc.. I put thousands and I mean thousands of training miles on (Italian) Campy gear on bunches of road bikes..flawless performance on all of it. Ditto with italian cycling shoes, clothes, etc.. Still putting thosands of miles per year on a Kestrel Evoke with Campy Super Record
10 spd set..with zero problems..far better and easier to adjust gear than Shimano. Tons of pros all over the world have done the same and more..your statement about poor quality and "fallen apart etc." is absolutely ludicrous. :x