Low B Gurgle is BAFFLED

[Grumps]

Yup..... Baffled.

I had Steve Fowler (Fowler Music, Pasadena, Maryland )http://fowlermusic.com/ install a baffle inside the bow of my SBA alto to correct a low B gurgle. It's basically an oval piece of brass set inside the bow to reduce its diameter. And guess what? It works! Low B is finally under control. Steve used to work on my horns back when I was in high school and I had lost track of him over the years. He had actually done work on this same horn for its prior owner; including a chem strip and an excellent relacquer job. I only wish he'd have used a darker lacquer as the lighter color (at the request of the prior owner who wanted a more modern look) is the only giveaway unless you have a very, very good eye for such things. Even with this baffle it still sings; and not a hint of stuffyness. I'm a happy camper for sure.

Thanks to all the fine folks who offered advice and took part in discussions in finding a viable fix for this horn.

[Ritchie]

So this is actually the permanent version of the trick with the wine cork thrown into the bell to cure a low note gurgle, isn't it?

[Bill08690]

Is low "B" still in tune? I have found that objects placed in the bow can effect the tuning of the lower two notes.

[Grumps]

The baffle is a flat piece of brass which is epoxied into place and conforms with the curve of the bow. It can be removed. The old wine cork or cap trick always left my horn stuffy. The baffle avoids this. It also has not adversely affected intonation. Apparently, Selmer had used this trick on a series of Mark VI altos to fix the same problem with low B and I for one can say it works on my SBA as well.

[AMASAX]

does this mean you'll have to change your id from Grumps :( to HAPPYFACE? :D

:P

[Grumps]

No.... there's still plenty of other things out there pissing me off.

Actually, a long time ago, in the early days of AOL, I got the screen name 'grmpyoldmn' as a gag and had shelved it for some time having given up on chat after a month or so. I discovered online hobby forums a couple years later and used the grmpy screen name, and henceforth the moniker 'Grumps', for posting. I know it gives out negative inferences, but I've rather enjoyed that over time. Those who know me beyond cyberspace know I'm neither grumpy nor (very) old.

[rhysonsax]

This thread was really interesting to me as I've just bought a low A alto Mk VI (serial number 205,xxx) with the same sort of problem. As I'm in the UK I can't go to see Steve Fowler, so I thought I might try a DIY job - (Do It Yourself, if you don't have that expression in the US).

I've had the horn expertly set up be my repairman, Steve Howard http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/ and he can get the notes fine all the way down, including with subtone. He swears that there are no leaks at all. But I find that with my Lawton 7*B and other high baffle mouthpieces, low C#, C and B gurgle every time and break up - middle D is awkward too. It's a bit better with a low baffle mouthpieces (like a Selmer Soloist) and with the neck from my other MkVI. And it makes a difference having the mouthpiece well onto the neck cork where it's properly in tune, but it still gurgles.

I tried with a wine cork in the bow and that certainly helped reduce the gurgle, but made it stuffy. Well, I decided it might be possible to follow what Steve Fowler did for Grumps. I cut out an oval 2 inches by 1 inch from bendy metal foil (much thicker than kitchen foil, but not as thick as sheet brass from a saxophone) and temporarily stuck that in the top surface of the bow curve with BluTak, having taken off the D# and C keys. Anyway, when I reassembled it and played, there was no change, it still gurgles !

Do you think I am doing anything wrong (like is the foil too thin or too small, have I misunderstood where to put the baffle), or do you think there may be another problem ? I know that the low A MkVI altos have a poor reputation from many people, but I think this one has a lot of potential if only I could sort out that gurgle.

All the best from the UK

Rhys

ps Other people who've played the horn find the same thing and my other MkVI alto (low Bb, 70,xxx) is completely fine.

[Michael Ward]

It's a mystery. Did you try it with Steve's set up? The only thing I can think is that if you're used to a regular V1 you might be voicing the notes differently but you say other players are getting the same result all except Steve. I've played a friend's low A and didn't have problems so I'm baffled. Reeds? With the Soloist everything should at least speak.

[sweetsax]

I have had a slight low B and C gurgle on my Ref 54, even after owning for alomst a year. The two things that have solved the issue so far have been - technique (air support, etc), and using a large, round chambered mouthpeice. A meyer, a vandoren v16, and the Super Session that came with the horn have all be real easy to play low subtones with no gurgle. However, these mouthpieces aren't bright enough when I play lead alto in jazz band. So I use a Yani metal #7 in that setting to cut through. I experience some of the low end gurgle with this peice and it is a small square chambered piece. I have noticed other square chambered peices like the soloist also behave that way. They give the horn a nice bright, lyrical singing qaulity in the mid and upper register, but the low end takes more work. The big round chambered pieces aren't as cutting, but they have a wonderful wide and warm sound with a deap and smooth low end.

You should try one of those Super Sessions, either an E or F and med-soft reeds. I think you'll be pleasantly suprised... and don't forget air support.. 8-)

[rhysonsax]

After quite a lot of experimenting, I've just about cured the gurgle on my low A Selmer alto. Reading some old threads on SOTW I found that several people had ended up putting in a baffle in the top of the bow. One was described as being shaped like pasta, which didn't help me much !

I replaced my flat oval foil baffle with a finger-sized piece of Blu-Tak stuck to the top of the bow. And it worked, pretty much perfectly. Now the gurgle is gone, even with high-baffle mouthpieces, and it's not stuffy, like when I used a wine cork. And the tuning hasn't been badly affected either.

Sometimes the note might be a bit hesitant to start, but it doesn't gurgle. And all that experimentation is helping my technique, expecially breath support.

Seems to me that there really was a problem with the acoustics of this horn - not leaks. Maybe the player's oral cavity or something has an effect, which might explain why Steve Howard didn't gurgle when he played it before, but he has a different mouthpiece anyway.

Maybe I'll make the baffle a more permanent feature, by using epoxy rather than Blu-Tak. Then I'll be able to swab the sax after playing.

Just a final question - what is it about the alto that seems to make it prone to gurgles in the bow notes ?

All the best

Rhys

[saxtek]

This thread is also interesting for me. I have a Mark VI low A alto (210,XXX), and it has the baffle already installed by the factory. My baffle is the oval shaped sheet metal baffle. It's hard to measure the dimensions, but one inch by two inches isn't too far off. I don't know why it didn't work for rhysonsax. A bigger (especially wider) baffle might work.

As for other sizes of saxophones, there were similar complaints about some tenors, Bueschers I believe. Selmer USA experimented with a baffle for their bass saxophone during the Mark VI era. It was a large piece of brass tubing, closed at both ends, around the top of the bow and extending a few inches up the straight part of the body. It was as big as a flagpole and amazed me the first time I saw one.

[rhysonsax]

Thanks Saxtek,

Can you described the shape of your baffle a bit more. I know that it's difficult to do it in words, especially when there are three dimensions involved, but for instance:


How thick is the sheet brass ?
Is it centred on the middle of the bow curve (equal amounts in body and in bell side) ?
Presumably it is installed with the longer dimension along the length of the sax
Do you bend it into shape to conform to the inner curve of the bow (both along the length of the sax and around the circumference of the bore) ?


And so what does it look like when it's installed ?

If anyone has a photo or a sketch, that would be really helpful.

I wonder how Selmer eventually sorted out the issue - presumably with some significant design changes to the bore.

All the best

RRhys

[saxtek]

My Mark VI low A alto (210XXX) has a baffle that was installed at the factory. It's hard to measure the dimensions of the baffle, but an oval 1"X 2" seems to be pretty close so I don't know why it didn't work for rhysonsax. Maybe a slightly larger baffle, especially a little wider, might work.

As for saxophones of other sizes that gurgle on low B, there were complaints about some tenors, Bueschers I think. During the Mark VI era, Selmer sometimes installed huge baffles in the bass saxophones assembled in Elkhart. One type was a piece of brass tubing about one inch in diameter, closed on the ends, and bent into the shape of a "J". It was soldered to the top of the bow and extended several inches up into the straight part of the body. The first time I saw one, I thought sosmeone might have stuck a flagpole in the horn! I contacted Ralph Morgan, who assured me that the big "J" was installed at Elkhart to cure the low B problem.

[rhysonsax]

Saxtek,

It just occurred to me that maybe I have completely misunderstood the idea of the oval baffle. I cut out the 2 inch x 1 inch oval from metal foil and then squashed that on the top surface of the bow so that it conforms exactly to the curves in that area. I suppose it therefore reduces the width across the bore, but only by a small amount.

Perhaps the oval baffle that you describe is flat brass sheet that is more like the baffle in a car exhaust (muffler) and sits across the flow.

If that's correct then the brass sheet stays flat and is fixed across the top surface of the bow, but at right angles to the saxophone's longitudinal axis, sticking out into the circle of the bore at that point. I can't really picture what this would do to the air flow and formation of standing waves, or whether you could still swab the bore with a pull-through.

So maybe you could clarify for me:

Does the baffle get squashed against the top curve in the bow, or stay as a flat sheet ?
Is the baffle installed at right angles to the sax's bore axis (sticking across the flow) or along the axis ?


I've also noticed that my fairly large lump of Blu-Tak in the bore seems to have flattened the notes from C# downwards by about 20-30 Cents, although the tone quality is unaffected and the gurgle is gone.

I feel another experiment coming on tonight !

Any further help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Rhys

[saxtek]

To make a baffle, I use sheet brass about the same thickness as the saxophone body. It doesn't have to be brass. Aluminum is fine. For other projects, like tone hole crescents on silver plated horns, I have cut up an aluminum salt shaker for the sheet metal.

The baffle is an oval about 1" X 2". It's actually an ellipse, because the ends are slightly "pointed" like the small end of an egg.

Bend the oval into a "C" shape, keeping the metal flat across its width.

Remove the low C and low Eb keys and keyguards. Keep putting the baffle into the low C tonehole to check its fit against the top of the bow. Try to refine the shape of the curve in the baffle so that the edges of the sheet metal touch the bow all around. Since the baffle is still flat there will be a hollow area under it when it is glued into place. The glue will seal off this hollow space behind the baffle.

The Selmer factory soldered their baffles into place, but you risk burning old lacquer if you do this. Also, without a complete overhaul, getting the bore of the horn clean enough to solder is a big hassle. Your best bet is to clean the bore with steel wool or fine sandpaper and use 5 minute epoxy or plumber's putty (The stuff you knead to mix together).

When the baffle fits perfectly, put the epoxy or putty on the inside surface of the "C", especially on the edges. Push it through the low C tonehole into position onto the top radius of the bottom bow. Clean up excess adhesive with Q tips or old rags before it cures. You can use various things to hold the baffle in place while the adhesive cures - a piece of styrofoam, a chunk of foam rubber, etc.

When properly done, the baffle doesn't make any gigantic changes in the pitch. You can also try using putty or clay on the BOTTOM of the bow. The idea is to decrease the volume of the bore during the curve of the bow. The great repairman George Jameson once told me that he advised people who had a gurgle on low B to "Take a big hammer and bash in the bottom of the saxophone. No one ever took my advice, though!"

If anyone is interested, I can partially explain why the gurgle happens, and why this fix works.

[schneidt]

saxtek,
I would be interested in why this happens. I've struggled with gurgles on the low C on my Reference 54 alto. Although practice and a larger chamber mouthpiece has helped, it has not eliminated the problem completely and I never know if the low C will gurgle or not--very frustrating. I might just give this fix a try.
Thanks,
Tom

[Nefertiti]

My tech put a small piece of cork on the upper bend of the bow and that got rid of any gurgle in my Reference alto but........it might be just me but it ruined the sound of the alto for me. The notes didn't resonate like they did before. I took the cork off myself and sure enough the horn is back to the way I like it sounding. Maybe a piece of metal would be different. Maybe a piece of cork dulls the sound. What's strange is that since I took the cork off I haven't had one gurgle form the low end of the horn. I'm happy though.

[schneidt]

I don't think it is just you. I've tried putting a stick of hot glue on the bottom, then on the top of the bow. Although it helped the situation, the tone was different and the intonation was affected a bit. It seems like the baffle shouldn't affect the airstream as much, although it seems like it would probably affect intonation.

[rhysonsax]

Saxtek,

I've cut out my elipse, bent it into a "C" shape and taken off the C and D# keys and key gaurds.

Now I want to fix the baffle in the bow on the top, but does the "C" shape face back up the bore towards the moutpiece or down the bore towards the bell ?

And should the baffle be dead in the centre of the bow, so that you can see it easily through the tone hole when the C key is removed, or should it be further up or down stream ?

This is certainly fun experimenting and it's good to know that Selmer and others have been there before me !

All the best

Rhys

[saxtek]

With the saxophone upright, the open side of the "C" should be upward, toward the mouthpiece end of the sax. The baffle should be centered, so that it cannot be seen when looking down the bell or looking down into the neck receiver. It should cup the upper curve of the bottom bow, and the edges of the baffle should touch all around.

[rhysonsax]

Well the gurgle on my low A MkVI is properly cured now.

I was having a lot of trouble understanding how the "C" shaped oval of brass should be positioned - I thought it had to be standing up on its edge and "baffling" the flow through the bore. Once I read the instructions again, I realised that it is really just a bulge in the top (inner curve) of the bow.

So back I went to my thick foil oval and padded out the space behind it with more Blu-Tak to create just the right bulge. And the horn blows just fine with no gurgle at all. Low C and B are maybe 20 cents flat, but the tone quality is good.

Playing around with different necks is interesting too - the original MkVI neck is OK, a Keilwerth in Silver plate really opens it up, but the neck from my 1957 MkVI is by far the best with a really rich sound. It seems like the neck can make a huge difference.

Now I'm just going to think about whether to make the bulge permanent with epoxy instead of Blu-Tak, and whether the low A should become my number 1 alto.

Many thanks to everyone whose ideas helped me solve this.

Rhys

[bruce bailey]

On my Conn, I just glued (goop) a drawer knob just past the low C hole. Works fine.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I've heard that an alternative to the brass sheet is to use a chunk of the kneed-able type of epoxy adhesive. Use it like setting blue-tac.

[MM]

Ouch-20 cents flat on low B and C. Not a big deal when playing in a jazz band but can be painful in musicals when you often get unisons down low with the tenors. I wouldn't score that way but for some reason broadway arrangers do. It's tough to lip up these notes without cracking. This was a major problem with the "long bow" Mk VI alto I once owned.

Definitely the Ref alto has some acoustic mods, you can tell by its scale and responsive altissimo and a propensity to gurgle could be a downside. I agree that brighter mpcs aggravate the gurgles.

I've heard a theory that the high F# hole which tends to break up the air column at a harmonic of low B is partly to blame. The high F hole is not a problem on low Bb because of the Bb's superior venting (the bell.) Or so goes theory. Of course the only way to prove this would be to perfectly seal up the bore of the sax where the high F# hole is, a painful experiment!

[MM]

Come to think of it, if you're concerned about the gurgle, you want to play the note....so then good intonation should be a concern. Can you bring the low B and C up to pitch without the sound getting harsh?

[tbone]

I've heard that an alternative to the brass sheet is to use a chunk of the kneed-able type of epoxy adhesive. Use it like setting blue-tac.

Gee Gordon, where did you hear that? :D

The epoxy putty works really slick. I've also seen older techs use a hunk of cork glued into the bow. Just imagine what could breed and grow in and on that!